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Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?

Pink Top Hat

Active Member
This is disingenuous.

What people believe affects what they do. If believers kept their notions strictly to themselves, no-one would care. In fact, they do not, and we get things like holy wars, stifling of beneficial medical research, and the mental distress that arises from the morbid guilt that religions impose.


What Holy Wars?

you mean English and French men in armour travelling all the way to a distant land and being repelled by the native population?

What about if those English and French stayed back in their own country?
No holy wars.
Simple.

You didn't find the Arabs travelling half way across the world to London to fight the English.

When you have foreign invasion and occupation it has consequences.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
What Holy Wars?

you mean English and French men in armour travelling all the way to a distant land and being repelled by the native population?

What about if those English and French stayed back in their own country?
No holy wars.
Simple.

You didn't find the Arabs travelling half way across the world to London to fight the English.

When you have foreign invasion and occupation it has consequences.

No, just to the USA, to destroy skyscrapers. However, lots of areas close to Arabia did experience Arab invasions.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
loverOfTruth said:
I am sure no regular scientist wants to be in the middle of a global controversy. So I wouldn't be surprised if one of the sources change his opinion to get away from the controversy. And notice he doesn't reject it or say the statements are false - all he says is ' not necessarily indicate divine inspiration'.

You cannot know the motivation of your source.

loverOfTruth said:
I haven't used only Abrahamic sources. Go back and check the link I provided with quotes from a variety of Scientists. They come from all sorts of backgrounds including Japan, India, Thailand etc. You can't claim that they are all from Abrahamic Faith. And even then I have explained that being from Abrahamic Faith in no way makes them positively biased towards the Qur'an.

And listen to the debate that I am linking at the bottom of the post, he even gives sources from 2010/2011.

In order to save me some time, please post evidence, with links, of scientists who do not accept an Abrahamic faith, who claim that what the Koran says about embryos indicates divine inspiration.

New readers frequently come to this forum, so you would be helping them too, not just me, by helping me to not have to go back and research some of your previous posts.

If your evidence is as good as you claim it is, it would have been submitted to some leading peer reviewed science journals. I do not think that that has happened. I assume that the vast majority of biologists in the world would reject your claim that what the Koran says about embryos indicates divine inspiration.

With your permission, I will start a new thread at the Evolution Vs. Creationism forum and quote you since there is a skeptic there (Painted Wolf) who has a degree in biology.

I assume that most college professors in the U.S. with Ph.D.s in biology would disagree with you.

Why don't some Muslim biologists challenge some skeptic biologists to have some public debates about embryos for all of the world to see via the Internet?
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to loverOfTruth: Consider the following:

Debate Issue: The Quran's descriptions of embryo development cast serious doubt on its supposed 'divine origin' | Debate.org

debate.org said:
The Quran's descriptions of embryo development cast serious doubt on its supposed 'divine origin'

There are many modern Muslims that point to certain ‘predictions' and claims in the Quran as smoking gun evidence that the Quran came from God. One of the most popular ‘proofs' of divine origin that are cited is the Quran's ‘miraculous' description of embryo development, its claims having been ‘confirmed by modern science!'

What the Quran actually states is that "bones come first, then are clothed in flesh."
My argument is that for various reasons this claim is wrong, and rather than being proof of divine origin, this claim in fact represents further evidence that the Quran is simply a man-made work of 7th century fiction.

These are the problems with the ‘bones come first' claim:

Problem Number 1: the word in question translates to English as ‘meat' or ‘flesh'. Now the vast majority of definitions for the words 'flesh' and ‘meat' describe it as a generic, umbrella term for all of the body's non-bone, 'soft tissue'. An embryo has a lot of soft tissue before it has any bones. Nuff said.

Problem Number 2: if 'bones come first' was an accurate way of describing embryo development, it really wouldn't count for anything anyway. The documented study of embryology precedes the birth of Muhammad by about a thousand years. The Koran's descriptions of embryo development are derived from Ancient Greek and Roman philosophers. Indeed it has been claimed that the Quran's descriptions have been lifted specifically from the 2nd century AD works of the Roman philosopher Galen.

Problem Number 3: embryo development is essentially a process of the differentiation of tissues. By week 3 there are three distinct types of cells:

"Ectoderm cells will form the embryo's skin; mesoderm cells its bones, muscles, and organs; and endoderm cells its digestive tract."

The muscles AND the bones AND the organs ALL form from the exact same type of tissue: the mesoderm. This tissue differentiates further into the muscles/bones/organs, i.e. THE DEVELOPMENT OF MUSCLES AND BONES HAPPEN SIMULATNEOUSLY.

Problem Number 4: there is absolutely no point in the stages of development in which the embryo has either ALL of its muscles and no bones, or ALL of its bones and no muscles. Even if bone development did begin earlier than muscle development, the Quran would still be wrong since this is not what it says. "Bones first then clothed in flesh" implied that the skeleton is fully formed before it is wrapped in soft tissue. This doesn't happen.

Problem Number 5: Muslim websites and You Tube vids abound pointing to this single biologist, Keith L Moore, who they claim describes bones coming first. Since the rest of the scientific literature and opinion on the subject tends to be ignored, this appeal is clearly an Argument from Authority. Typically Muslim sites and vids refer us to one lecture Keith L Moore gave in 1971 where he (kind of) says the bones come first. However in the the 7th edition of his textbook even Moore recounts specifically how the Koran's statements on embryology are pretty much copied and pasted from the works of Galen and thus are nothing impressive: he references the essay "B. Musallam, The human embryo in Arabic scientific and religious thought", in support of that contention.

Problem Number 6: if we put aside ALL of those problems then there is another: since neither development of muscle or bone strictly comes first as they begin to develop simultaneously, we might ask the question ‘which develops faster?' The answer is the ‘muscle'. Bone development is not even fully complete until several months after birth.

So, in summary, the Quran's descriptions of embryo development are child-like in their simplicity, based on works that came centuries earlier, and fundamentally inaccurate on even a basic level.

There is another interesting article at http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-embryology.htm.
 
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Daviso452

Boy Genius

I actually agree with this article. Extremists will kill no matter what. Their target depends on their beliefs, but they will still kill.

However, there is a difference between atheism and anti-theism, which the leaders the article mention are. Atheism is not a belief. Anti-theism is. True, anti-theists are atheists, but not all atheists are anti-theist.

On the other side, it is true that not the vast majority of religious people do not kill. However, the texts upon which their beliefs are based on say they should. This is the criticism I have; people are cherry picking which sections they believe in, when they say the entire text is holy. Why don't more christians stone people? Because they have realized that such things are immoral.

That is my view of it. I don't see it as "oh, religious people kill," I see it as "both atheists and theists kill, but theists are disobeying their holy texts when they don't.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
In order to save me some time, please post evidence, with links, of scientists who do not accept an Abrahamic faith, who claim that what the Koran says about embryos indicates divine inspiration.

New readers frequently come to this forum, so you would be helping them too, not just me, by helping me to not have to go back and research some of your previous posts.

As I have mentioned in the past and yet again that I have already posted a link which includes quotes from a multitude of scientists from different backgrounds. And this is not the first time I am repeating that. If you are not willing to spend the time to read/peruse the information I have already provided, there's no point furthering any discussion with you. On top of that when you accuse me of not answering your questions(in a different thread of mine) when you yourself is not looking into what I am providing, it says something about you. Doesn't it ?

If your evidence is as good as you claim it is, it would have been submitted to some leading peer reviewed science journals. I do not think that that has happened. I assume that the vast majority of biologists in the world would reject your claim that what the Koran says about embryos indicates divine inspiration.
I have already explained to you that the Qur'an is not a science textbook but it contains information that conforms to proven Scientific facts. Once again, I will provide a youtube link which should clarify the issue along with the Quranic claim.

With your permission, I will start a new thread at the Evolution Vs. Creationism forum and quote you since there is a skeptic there (Painted Wolf) who has a degree in biology.

I assume that most college professors in the U.S. with Ph.D.s in biology would disagree with you.
As I have mentioned earlier, I am not a biologist and hence have no intention of debating a biologist. Why don't you take the verses from the Qur'an regarding embryology to any biologist who is familiar with the embryonic development and without telling them that this is from the Qur'an ask what they think of the stages of human embryonic development stated there. You shall have your proof. You have to be honest and fair to get an unbiased opinion though.

Why don't some Muslim biologists challenge some skeptic biologists to have some public debates about embryos for all of the world to see via the Internet?
Because the Qur'an is not a biology book. However, why aren't there any refutation of the claims of the Qur'an from well known biologists other than advocate of athiesm PJ Myers? That should tell you something.
 
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loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member

Again, you have posted this before listening to the debate video I have provided. That debate actually covers lot of those issues. Anyway, I'll try one more time and provide you with a shorter(but still long) video which only covers this specific issue and refutes all those false allegations.

[youtube]SJcsHl4ijn4[/youtube]
Science & Revelation: Embryology in the Qur'an (includes responses to contentions) - YouTube

I think it is an utter waste of my time when someone is not fully engaged/invested into the discussion, to keep repeating myself over and over again. I am sorry if it sounds rough but my time is as precious as yours.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
What Holy Wars?

you mean English and French men in armour travelling all the way to a distant land and being repelled by the native population?

What about if those English and French stayed back in their own country?
No holy wars.
Simple.

You didn't find the Arabs travelling half way across the world to London to fight the English.

When you have foreign invasion and occupation it has consequences.

:no:, they didn't go London.

The Arabs did expand westward through North Africa, and then conquered much of the Spanish Peninsula. And then the Ottoman Turks also expanded westward centuries later, first capturing Constantinople, and then the rest of the Balkan. this was followed by centuries of wars in Central Europe with the Austrians.

The successive "Islamic" empires have acted just like every other empires in Europe and Asia before, during and after them: act aggressively, through invasions and conquests, on foreign lands not their.

Whether the wars or invasions were "holy" or nor during the empires' heydays, is debatable, but modern Muslims do often refer to these empires as "Islamic" and interchangeable with Arab Empire, Persian Empire or Ottoman Empire.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
loverOfTruth said:
As I have mentioned in the past and yet again that I have already posted a link which includes quotes from a multitude of scientists from different backgrounds.

Many Christian creationists use an approach that is similar to your approach. They quote a few experts, ask their opponents to refute their experts, or to state their opinions about the claims, knowing that most of their opponents are not experts, and usually do not tell readers that their experts are only a very small percentage of experts who support their claims.

Years ago, a poll showed that in the U.S., 99.86% of experts accept naturalistic or theistic evolution. Creationists will normally not mention that if they are aware of it. I assume that the percentage of biologists who, when presented with your evidence, would believe that what the Koran says about embryos was divinely inspired would be smaller than that 99.86%. So actually, it doesn’t matter that much what religions your experts follow if they are only a very small percentage of experts.

Please remember that the only issue is not whether or not what the Koran says about embryos is scientifically accurate, but also whether or not what it says about embryos was divinely inspired, and whether or not what it says was copied from eariler non-Muslim writings.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
loverOfTruth said:
As I have mentioned earlier, I am not a biologist and hence have no intention of debating a biologist.

Then how are you in a position to have informed opinions about embryos and the Koran?

loverOfTruth said:
Why don't you take the verses from the Qur'an regarding embryology to any biologist who is familiar with the embryonic development and without telling them that this is from the Qur'an ask what they think of the stages of human embryonic development stated there. You shall have your proof. You have to be honest and fair to get an unbiased opinion though.

No, I am not going to do your homework for you. Much more importantly, Muslims worldwide who agree with you have sufficient money to put together a proper presentation of their claims. A handful of quotes from a fraction of a per cent of the world's experts is not nearly good enough.

loverOfTruth said:
.......the Qur'an is not a biology book. However, why aren't there any refutation of the claims of the Qur'an from well known biologists other than advocate of athiesm PJ Myers? That should tell you something.

Better yet, why don't Muslims who agree with you go to some of the world's leading universities, and ask the chairmen of the biology departments if they believe that what the Koran says about embryos was divinely inspired? If evidence like that supported your claims, then you would have something to brag about.

If by chance I come across a biologist, what are you requesting that I ask him?
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Please remember that the only issue is not whether or not what the Koran says about embryos is scientifically accurate, but also whether or not what it says about embryos was divinely inspired, and whether or not what it says was copied from eariler non-Muslim writings.

I guess once I again you came back without actually listening to the debate I posted. I guess I need to spoon feed you. Listen to the last 20min of the last video I provided and he refutes the claims that it could have been copied from other sources such as Galen, Aristotle. Because their theory on embryology is actually inconsistent with modern theory where as the Qur'anic version is accurate. So how did an illiterate man copy the wrong thing and correct it ?
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Better yet, why don't Muslims who agree with you go to some of the world's leading universities, and ask the chairmen of the biology departments if they believe that what the Koran says about embryos was divinely inspired? If evidence like that supported your claims, then you would have something to brag about.

See that's why I say I hate repeating stuff for people who doesn't pay attention. We are back to square 1. This is exactly what I mentioned in the very first post related to this topic. Muslims did go to Professor Keith Moore and he confirmed it.

"Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. "

And before you come back again saying that is an Abrahamic source, please bring your proof that he is a source who was a follower of one of the abrahamic faiths at the time of the claim.

If by chance I come across a biologist, what are you requesting that I ask him?

That the following stages of embryonic development is consistent with modern understanding of the human embryonic development.

"We created man from an essence of clay, then We placed him as a
drop of fluid in a safe place. Then We made that drop of fluid into a
clinging form, and then We made that form into a lump of flesh, and
We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with
flesh, and later We made him into other forms. Glory be to God the
best of creators."

Here is a research paper explaining how they are consistent with the modern understanding. http://www.iera.org.uk/downloads/Embryology_in_the_Quran_v2.pdf
 

Daviso452

Boy Genius
"We created man from an essence of clay, then We placed him as a
drop of fluid in a safe place. Then We made that drop of fluid into a
clinging form, and then We made that form into a lump of flesh, and
We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with
flesh, and later We made him into other forms. Glory be to God the
best of creators."

It seems as though that passage is referring to the start of humanity as a species and not embryonic development of an individual.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
It seems as though that passage is referring to the start of humanity as a species and not embryonic development of an individual.

That is because you have not properly applied the Forer Effect.
Give it a few, there will be at least one who will show you how.
 

Zoe Doidge

Basically a Goddess
The real question that comes to my mind is if the Qur'an does contain the correct 'steps' of embryonic development...

What does that prove?

After all, even for fairly primitive people it's not like it'd be difficult to find this information out. Medicine and Surgical tools have been found long before Muhammad's time. Galen of Pergamon for example was a famous 2nd/3rd century Roman surgeon.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
It seems as though that passage is referring to the start of humanity as a species and not embryonic development of an individual.

The very first statement is about how the human beings(Adam and Eve) came into being at the very first and then natural process of procreation started as mentioned in the following verse :
“And God said: ‘O Mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam) and from Him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve), and from them both He created many men and women.’” (Quran 4:1)

The paper I linked, explains it well.
 
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