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Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
The real question that comes to my mind is if the Qur'an does contain the correct 'steps' of embryonic development...

What does that prove?

After all, even for fairly primitive people it's not like it'd be difficult to find this information out. Medicine and Surgical tools have been found long before Muhammad's time. Galen of Pergamon for example was a famous 2nd/3rd century Roman surgeon.

Listen to the last 20min of the last video I provided and he refutes the claims that it could have been copied from other sources such as Galen, Aristotle. Because their theory on embryology is actually inconsistent with modern theory where as the Qur'anic version is accurate. So how did an illiterate man copy the wrong thing and correct it ? Plus, those detailed stages have been discovered only after the invention of sophisticated microscope - they could not be seen with naked eye.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to loverOfTruth:

Your source Dr. Moore has admitted that what the Koran says about embryos does not necessarily indicate divine inspiration. That is much different from some of his previous comments that imply that what the Koran says about embryos does indicate divine inspiration.

Wikipedia says "Moore's work on the Qur'an has aroused controversy among embryologists such as PZ Myers. In 2002, Moore chose not to be interviewed by the Wall Street Journal on the subject of his work on Islam, stating that "it's been ten or eleven years since I was involved in the Qur'an." Apparently, Dr. Morre is becoming less willing to defend his position.

Have you read PZ Myers' writings about Dr. Moore? How about other scientists' writings about Dr. Moore? Do you know enough about biology to have informed opinions about what Dr. Morre's critics have said about him?

What you need is a general consensus of biologists, but you only have a relative handful of biologists. Christian creationists can also find a relative handful of biologists who agree with them, but over 99% of experts disagree with their experts.

If you sent your arguments to any of the chairmen of the departments of biology at Stanford, MIT, Yale, Harvard, the California Institute of Technology, or UCLA, they would find your experts' claim that what the Koran says about embryos was divinely inspired to false.

If a God inspired the Koran, and wanted to use the Koran to try to convince people that he inspired it, he could easy have done a far better job of that than he has. For example, he could have inspired some accurate prophecies regarding when and where some natural disasters would occur, month, day, and year, and he could have inspired Muhammad to write some genetic code sequences in the Koran. Obviously, there is not anything in the Koran of the quality of those examples.

A God who wanted to communicate directly with humans would have no need or desire to do so through human proxies, thereby causing lots of needless confusion. Even Muslims themsevles cannot always agree regarding how the Koran should be interpreted, let alone try to convince other groups of people to accept it. If a God wanted to communicate directly with humans, there would be no substitute for him showing up personally, tangibly, in front of everyone in the world. Basic common sense indicates that if God showed up personally, tangibly, in front of everyone in the world, he would have nothing to lose, and humans would have much to gain.

Even if a God inspired the Koran, I would not be able to accept him unless he first answered some questions to my satisfaction, including why he attacks humans with hurricanes, and tsunamis, and stands idly by while people die of starvation.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
loverOfTruth said:
Listen to the last 20 min of the last video I provided and he refutes the claims that it could have been copied from other sources such as Galen, Aristotle. Because their theory on embryology is actually inconsistent with modern theory where as the Qur'anic version is accurate. So how did an illiterate man copy the wrong thing and correct it? Plus, those detailed stages have been discovered only after the invention of sophisticated microscope - they could not be seen with naked eye.

Would you like to discuss what you said with a biologist?

It doesn't matter if what the Koran says about embryos is accurate unless what is says was divinly inspired. As far as I know, the vast majority of biologists would reject that claim.

I usually do not watch videos. Written presentations are much better.

loverOfTruth said:
As I have mentioned earlier, I am not a biologist and hence have no intention of debating a biologist.


But you have been debating biology for weeks in this thread. What I just quoted that you said is debating biology. Either you are in a position to have informed opinions about biology, or you aren't, so which is it?

It is amazing that some Muslims try to get away with this nonsense. The vast majority of biologists in the world surely reject the claim that what the Koran says about embryos was divinely inspired. If the claim was legitmate, it would be all over the world media, and some department heads of biology of some leading universities around the world would be making supporting statements, but none of that has happened. There has been a relatively small amount of media, but nothing that has grown anywhere near being an issue that has become widely controversial among biologists. I had never heard of this issue until I read this thread.
 
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loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Even Muslims themsevles cannot always agree regarding how the Koran should be interpreted, let alone try to convince other groups of people to accept it. If a God wanted to communicate directly with humans, there would be no substitute for him showing up personally, tangibly, in front of everyone in the world. Basic common sense indicates that if God showed up personally, tangibly, in front of everyone in the world, he would have nothing to lose, and humans would have much to gain.

"And those who have no knowledge say: 'Why does not Allah speak to us (face to face) or why does not a sign come to us?' So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike, We have indeed made plain the signs for people who believe with certainty." (Al Qur'an 2:118)

"And they say: 'Why has not an angel been sent down to him?' Had We sent down an angel, the matter would have been judged at once, and no respite would be granted to them." (Al Qur'an 6:8)

By the way, I never asked you to accept Islam. The purpose of the thread is to inform others of what we believe and why and then people can do whatever they want with the information, which is not the same as asking others to accept Islam. Some people might benefit(at least in this world) just by learning and not necessarily adopting.

Even if a God inspired the Koran, I would not be able to accept him unless he first answered some questions to my satisfaction, including why he attacks humans with hurricanes, and tsunamis, and stands idly by while people die of starvation.

That says it all. After I have countered all your arguments, you keep going on in circles and change the topic and say this ? That is certainly not the topic of this thread. With that I leave you with a greeting of peace and I will not be wasting my time responding to you in this thread anymore.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to loverOfTruth: The vast majority of biologists surely disagree with your claim that what the Koran says about embryos was divinely inspired. Even your source Dr. Moore admitted that what the Koran says about embryos was not necessarily divinely inspired.

It is frequently not difficult to find a relative handful of experts who accept absurd claims.

If you are not willing to debate a biologist, then you are not in a position to have informed opinions about what your experts say about biology.

It is reasonable to assume that no department head of biology at any leading university in the U.S. would claim that what the Koran says about embryos is divinely inspired. In addition, it is reasonable to assume that few, if any department heads of biology at state universities would claim that what the Koran says about embryos is divinely inspired.

Logically, if someone wants to get scientific support for something, they know that the best ways to try to do that is to contact prestigious universities, leading science journals, and leading science organizations, including the National Academies of Science. Muslims who agree with you have generally, and quite conveniently, avoided using those options, preferring instead to try to impress laymen who are naive, and easily led by the opinions of a relative handful of experts.

Simply stated, the people who know that most about biology are biologists, and most of them disagree with you. Since Dr. Moore was not able to convince most biologists, it is quite obvious that you have far less chances than he did. The vast majority of people in the world do not know a lot about biology, and thus are not in a position to judge what the Koran says about biology.

If the Koran had contained the equation E = mc2, you would no doubt claim that God gave Muhammad the equation, but a far better explanation would be that an alien gave it to him. Many people believe that aliens have visited the earth at various times.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
If a God wanted to communicate directly with humans, there would be no substitute for him showing up personally, tangibly, in front of everyone in the world. Basic common sense indicates that if God showed up personally, tangibly, in front of everyone in the world, he would have nothing to lose, and humans would have much to gain.


loverOfTruth said:
"And those who have no knowledge say: 'Why does not Allah speak to us (face to face) or why does not a sign come to us?' So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike, We have indeed made plain the signs for people who believe with certainty." (Al Qur'an 2:118)

"And they say: 'Why has not an angel been sent down to him?' Had We sent down an angel, the matter would have been judged at once, and no respite would be granted to them." (Al Qur'an 6:8)

By the way, I never asked you to accept Islam. The purpose of the thread is to inform others of what we believe and why and then people can do whatever they want with the information, which is not the same as asking others to accept Islam. Some people might benefit(at least in this world) just by learning and not necessarily adopting.

But none of that provides a reasonable motive for God communicating with humans through human proxies, instead of appearing tangibly, in person, in front of everyone in the world. It is just basic common sense that if a God wanted to directly communciate with humans, he would do so tangibly, in person, not through humans proxies, which would cause a lot of needless confusion, doubt, and unbelief.

Agnostic75 said:
Even if a God inspired the Koran, I would not be able to accept him unless he first answered some questions to my satisfaction, including why he attacks humans with hurricanes, and tsunamis, and stands idly by while people die of starvation.

loverOfTruth said:
That says it all. After I have countered all your arguments, you keep going on in circles and change the topic and say this? That is certainly not the topic of this thread. With that I leave you with a greeting of peace and I will not be wasting my time responding to you in this thread anymore.

But what difference does it make if a God inspired the Koran if it cannot be reasonably proven that he has good character? If a God exists, his character would the most important issue about him by far.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member


But none of that provides a reasonable motive for God communicating with humans through human proxies, instead of appearing tangibly, in person, in front of everyone in the world. It is just basic common sense that if a God wanted to directly communciate with humans, he would do so tangibly, in person, not through humans proxies, which would cause a lot of needless confusion, doubt, and unbelief.

But what difference does it make if a God inspired the Koran if it cannot be reasonably proven that he has good character? If a God exists, his character would the most important issue about him by far.

That is certainly not the topic of this thread. With that I leave you with a greeting of peace and I will not be wasting my time responding to you in this thread anymore.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
That is certainly not the topic of this thread. With that I leave you with a greeting of peace and I will not be wasting my time responding to you in this thread anymore.
It is absolutely the topic of this thread, because that is an argument by contrapositive. Unless you want to argue that God would not want to appear tangibly for some reason, then His lack of doing so is evidence against the God described in the Qu'ran.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
It is absolutely the topic of this thread, because that is an argument by contrapositive. Unless you want to argue that God would not want to appear tangibly for some reason, then His lack of doing so is evidence against the God described in the Qu'ran.

The topic is the evidence of Truth of Islam based on the miraculous(humanly impossible) nature of the Qur'an and Not why or why not God shows up tangibly.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
The topic is the evidence of Truth of Islam based on the miraculous(humanly impossible) nature of the Qur'an and Not why or why not God shows up tangibly.
You know how an argument by contrapositive (or an argument by contradiction) works, don't you?
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
You know how an argument by contrapositive (or an argument by contradiction) works, don't you?

Yes, and just because God didn't show up in person doesn't mean the Qur'an is not miraculous. In fact, God sending message via a messenger or showing up tangibly has no bearing on whether the message is true or not.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
PolyHedral said:
It is absolutely the topic of this thread, because that is an argument by contrapositive. Unless you want to argue that God would not want to appear tangibly for some reason, then His lack of doing so is evidence against the God described in the Qu'ran.

Indeed, as is widely known, one of the most important parts of solving a murder is finding a reasonable motive. If there aren't any reasonable motives, that presents police with some problems. In addition, no supposed God has good character merely because some of his followers say he has, or even if he said that he has good character in person.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
loverOfTruth said:
.......just because God didn't show up in person doesn't mean the Qur'an is not miraculous.

On the contrary, simple logic indicates that if a God loves humans a lot, and wants to communicate directly with them, and wants to let everyone know exactly how he wants them to live their lives, he would show up tangibly, in person. In addition, he would not injure and kill humans and innocent animals with hurricanes, and refuse to give food to people who die from starvation.

There are many obvious disadvantages of God communicating with humans through human proxies, and no obvious advantages. Why choose a complex answer when a much simpler answer is available?

Why would God inspire Muhammad to write what he wrote about embryos, which most experts question, when he could easily have given Muhammad some comples mathematical equations that would have left little doubt that Muhammad got the information from God, or an alien? What need would there be for a God to needlessly cause lots of doubt, and confusion?

You have not provided any evidence that anything in the Koran is miraculous, surely not anything scientific that the majority of experts agree with.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to loverOfTruth: The vast majority of biologists surely disagree with your claim that what the Koran says about embryos was divinely inspired. Even your source Dr. Moore admitted that what the Koran says about embryos was not necessarily divinely inspired.

It is frequently not difficult to find a relative handful of experts who accept absurd claims.

If you are not willing to debate a biologist, then you are not in a position to have informed opinions about what your experts say about biology.

It is reasonable to assume that no department head of biology at any leading university in the U.S. would claim that what the Koran says about embryos was divinely inspired. In addition, it is reasonable to assume that few, if any department heads of biology at state universities would claim that what the Koran says about embryos is divinely inspired.

Logically, if someone wants to get scientific support for something, they know that the best ways to try to do that is to contact prestigious universities, leading science journals, and leading science organizations, including the National Academies of Science. Muslims who agree with you have generally, and quite conveniently, avoided using those options, preferring instead to try to impress laymen who are naive, and easily led by the opinions of a relative handful of experts.

Simply stated, the people who know that most about biology are biologists, and most of them disagree with you. Since Dr. Moore was not able to convince most biologists, it is quite obvious that you have far less chances than he did. The vast majority of people in the world do not know a lot about biology, and thus are not in a position to judge what the Koran says about biology.

If the Koran contained the equation E = mc2, you would no doubt claim that God gave Muhammad the equation, but a far better explanation would be that an alien gave it to him. Many people believe that aliens have visited the earth at various times.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
On the contrary, simple logic indicates that if a God loves humans a lot, and wants to communicate directly with them, and wants to let everyone know exactly how he wants them to live their lives, he would show up tangibly, in person. In addition, he would not injure and kill humans and innocent animals with hurricanes, and refuse to give food to people who die from starvation.

There are many obvious disadvantages of God communicating with humans through human proxies, and no obvious advantages. Why choose a complex answer when a much simpler answer is available?

Why would God inspire Muhammad to write what he wrote about embryos, which most experts question, when he could easily have given Muhammad some comples mathematical equations that would have left little doubt that Muhammad got the information from God, or an alien? What need would there be for a God to needlessly cause lots of doubt, and confusion?

You have not provided any evidence that anything in the Koran is miraculous, surely not anything scientific that the majority of experts agree with.

Al Qur'an (17:89-96) ...

And indeed We have fully explained to mankind, in this Quran, every kind of similitude, but most mankind refuse (the truth and accept nothing) but disbelief.
And they say: "We shall not believe in you (O Muhammad SAW), until you cause a spring to gush forth from the earth for us;
"Or you have a garden of date-palms and grapes, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst abundantly;
"Or you cause the heaven to fall upon us in pieces, as you have pretended, or you bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face;
"Or you have a house of adornable materials (like silver and pure gold, etc.), or you ascend up into the sky, and even then we will put no faith in your ascension until you bring down for us a Book that we would read." Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Glorified (and Exalted) be my Lord (Allah) above all that evil they (polytheists) associate with Him! Am I anything but a man, sent as a Messenger?"
And nothing prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said: "Has Allah sent a man as (His) Messenger?"
Say: "If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, We should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger."
Say: "Sufficient is Allah for a witness between me and you. Verily! He is the All-Knower, the All-Seer of His slaves."
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
loverOfTruth said:
Al Qur'an (17:89-96) ...

And indeed We have fully explained to mankind, in this Quran, every kind of similitude, but most mankind refuse (the truth and accept nothing) but disbelief.
And they say: "We shall not believe in you (O Muhammad SAW), until you cause a spring to gush forth from the earth for us;
"Or you have a garden of date-palms and grapes, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst abundantly;
"Or you cause the heaven to fall upon us in pieces, as you have pretended, or you bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face;
"Or you have a house of adornable materials (like silver and pure gold, etc.), or you ascend up into the sky, and even then we will put no faith in your ascension until you bring down for us a Book that we would read." Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Glorified (and Exalted) be my Lord (Allah) above all that evil they (polytheists) associate with Him! Am I anything but a man, sent as a Messenger?"
And nothing prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said: "Has Allah sent a man as (His) Messenger?"
Say: "If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, We should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger."
Say: "Sufficient is Allah for a witness between me and you. Verily! He is the All-Knower, the All-Seer of His slaves."

If you will explain that in simple English, I will comment on it.

There are many obvious disadvantages of God communicating with humans through human proxies, and no obvious advantages. Why choose a complex answer when a much simpler answer is available?

In your opinion, is God able to provide additional evidence that will convince more people to love and accept him, and would eliminate lots of needless doubt and confusion?
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
If you will explain that in simple English, I will comment on it.

There are many obvious disadvantages of God communicating with humans through human proxies, and no obvious advantages. Why choose a complex answer when a much simpler answer is available?

In your opinion, is God able to provide additional evidence that will convince more people to love and accept him, and would eliminate lots of needless doubt and confusion?

Summary of that is : No matter what proof you bring to them, they'll look for something else and will not believe. Just like you are asking to see E = mc2 instead of embryology now.
 
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