Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?

[Rational_Mind]

No, I haven't...not really.



I am well aware that heaven could also mean the abode of God, or the abode for resurrected people, hence the afterlife. I deliberately left that out, because I don't think it was relevant.

As you, Qur'an 51:47 referred to heaven, but the context that I see, relates to the sky. This is confirmed by one translation (Yusuf Ali):



The term FIRMAMENT referred to the sky, and the sky is often poetically referred to (by ancient writers) as the "dome of heaven", "the vault", the "great expanse", etc. All of which points to the sky and Earth's atmospheres, and how we (or the ancient people) view the sky, but standing on the ground.

This is confirmed in Genesis 1:6-8:



The Genesis referred to firmament to being the sky and the atmosphere (with winds clouds and rain). God divided the water above (sky/atmosphere) from the water below (seas, oceans). So the Earth and Heaven (sky) was divided.

And when you read the entire Qur'an 51, you will see that Sura speaks of winds, clouds, rains and thunders, everything that happen in our sky (heaven). The chapter/Sura also has Arabic title, which either means "Winnowing Winds" or the "Scatterers".

So do you see why I think that proper context for heaven in this verse (47) - AND IN THIS CHAPTER (51) relates to the sky, and not to God's abode, or deep space or the universe. That's why I didn't mention the "afterlife" or God's abode, because it isn't relevant. Do you see resemblance between the firmament in Genesis 1 and in the Qur'an 51?

Does the Heaven (as in the abode of God and the afterlife for the departed) have cloud, rain, wind and thunder?

Perhaps it is possible for God to create clouds, but in the spirit realm I don't think it is needed, unless you think Heaven is exactly like life on Earth.

And the dividing the sky (heaven) from the Earth wasn't even an original Hebrew idea or Islamic idea. Mesopotamian myths was quite widespread, and their ancient stories/myths spread as far west as Egypt and Anatolian Turkey (the Hittite Empire).

The separation of the Heaven and Earth can be found in the Sumerian poem of Gilgamesh ("Gilgames and the Netherworld"), in the Babylonian Enuma Elish ("Epic of Creation"), and several other poems and epics.

In Egypt, there are various versions of creation, some with the episode of the separation of heaven/earth, like some verses in the Pyramid Texts, the Coffin Texts, a couple of the Book of the Dead, and in the Papyrus Of Nesi-Amsu (particularly the part about Creation).

Do you see my points?

Maybe you shouldn't comment unless you lookup the arabic words and full understand what you are speaking about.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:
who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):--
"Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128)
The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.source =http://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/bukhari/060_sbt.html

I assume you will withdraw your scurrilous accusation of my trolling anti-islamic sites in order to produce falsehoods. An apology is also in order.
You see I have seen this very passage produced by Muslims in explanation for the compilation of the Qu'ran and was simply going on memory, ergo why I didn't offer a quote. I was under the misapprehension that it was common knowledge among Muslims. Still I've searched it down, from what I assume to be a reputable site and it confirms word for word what my memory told me.
I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else,
So now instead of calling me a liar answer the questions. I will not offer you the satisfaction of repeating them. Go to the post where you accused me of dishonesty and worse and you will see them.
It would seem that this verse, at least on this particular occasion, is profoundly prophetic. I look forward to your apology and your answers.
:thud::thud::thud:

​

Anyone who visits the link will know your complete academic dishonesty.

You should be ashamed at least for whatever academics stand for. Have some sort of respect.

edit: I am assuming you are mentally fit but your mistakes stem from your prior beliefs or understanding of Christianity that is constantly being applied to Islam. The Hadith is not equal in value as in the Christian and Judaism faith as the bibles. Even though historians have also agreed that the Hadith is compiled in better quality with more care then the bibles. Yet, it is something that is orally recorded stories after 200 years, we have to be very careful and analyze all of it to understand what could have been missed. Once you read all similar Hadith of this incident it becomes very clear what the incident is all about. So read all of it and any person with intellect of a human being should reason by pondering over it.

 

[fishy]

Anyone who visits the link will know your complete academic dishonesty.

You should be ashamed at least for whatever academics stand for. Have some sort of respect.

edit: I am assuming you are mentally fit but your mistakes stem from your prior beliefs or understanding of Christianity that is constantly being applied to Islam. The Hadith is not equal in value as in the Christian and Judaism faith as the bibles. Even though historians have also agreed that the Hadith is compiled in better quality with more care then the bibles. Yet, it is something that is orally recorded stories after 200 years, we have to be very careful and analyze all of it to understand what could have been missed. Once you read all similar Hadith of this incident it becomes very clear what the incident is all about. So read all of it and any person with intellect of a human being should reason by pondering over it.

So you are claiming that the history of how the Qu'ran was compiled, at the behest of Allah and as recorded in a hadith by Sahih Al-Bukhari is a LIE . Well how about that. I now invite all Muslims on these boards to come and support this assertion.

BTW this is the title of the website, those sneaky anti-muslims will use any subterfuge, damn their smartness
[FONT=Verdana,MS Sans Serif, Arial, Helv][SIZE=2+] In the Name of Allah, Most Beneficient Most Merciful [/SIZE][/FONT]
Welcome to the Hadith Collection
Edit....The home page of the host site for the quote....http://www.iium.edu.my/ International Islamic University Malaysia.

 

[gnostic]

Maybe you shouldn't comment unless you lookup the arabic words and full understand what you are speaking about.

I believed that I have raised some valid points.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:
who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):--
"Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128)
The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.source =http://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/bukhari/060_sbt.html

I assume you will withdraw your scurrilous accusation of my trolling anti-islamic sites in order to produce falsehoods. An apology is also in order.
You see I have seen this very passage produced by Muslims in explanation for the compilation of the Qu'ran and was simply going on memory, ergo why I didn't offer a quote. I was under the misapprehension that it was common knowledge among Muslims. Still I've searched it down, from what I assume to be a reputable site and it confirms word for word what my memory told me.
I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else,
So now instead of calling me a liar answer the questions. I will not offer you the satisfaction of repeating them. Go to the post where you accused me of dishonesty and worse and you will see them.
It would seem that this verse, at least on this particular occasion, is profoundly prophetic. I look forward to your apology and your answers.
:thud::thud::thud:

​

You yourself is exposing your intentions and dishonesty. You did not even read the link I provided that included the response. So I'll paste some part of it here :

The Prophet (peace be upon him) permitted the writing of the Quran and prohibited the writing of anything else along with it, so Abu Bakr did not order anything to be written down except what has already been written down, and that is the reason why he (Zayd bin Thaabit) refrained from writing the last verses from Surah al Bara'a until he found it written, for he already knew it and had people who remembered it along with him.

And Ahmad said: Ali bin Bahr said that Ali bin Muhammad bin Salma on the authority of Muhammad ibn Ishaq on the authority of Yahya bin Ebad on the authority of his father Ebad bin Zubayr may Allah be pleased with him said that Al Harith (Zayd) approached bin Khuzaymah with these two verses from the ending of Surah Al Bara'a (Surah 9) 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves' to Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab so he said 'Who is with you on this?' He said 'I don't know' and by Allah I testify that I heard it from the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him and I learned it and memorized it then Umar said: And I testify that I heard it from the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him. (Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Commentary on Surah 9:129, Source)

So as we can clearly see there is no doubt at all regarding the authenticity of these verses. The companions already knew that these verses existed. However, the only issue was that since the caliph was so strict regarding the collection of the Quran, Zayd needed to find the evidence written down and not only memorized. Even after the verses were found with Abi Khuzaymah, the rest of the other companions remembered them and that strengthened the authority of these verses. This only goes to show how strict and cautious the Muslims were when they collected the Quran.

Please do not come back with a lie without reading the Entire response.

And regarding Hadith - there are strong Hadith(historically authentic and no issues in the chain of narration) and there are weak Hadith (where there could be a missing link in the chain of narration or memory issue with one of the person in the chain of narration etc). So there are no issues with Strong Hadith and the Hadith are clearly identified as Weak or Strong. So you could just rely on the Strong Hadiths.

 

[fishy]

You have the audacity to bring this to me as proof and then call me a liar? I need sleep but I will return and then.........................

 

[Daviso452]

One thing that Lover of Truth expressed without fully going into detail about was that no man can recreate the Qu'ran. For him, and any of those who share the belief, I wish to know by what standards you base this on. If someone were to match it, how would it be judged? Otherwise, if you just deny that anything can, that is a presupposition and is not an argument by any standards.

Anyone mind sharing?

 

[Rational_Mind]

One thing that Lover of Truth expressed without fully going into detail about was that no man can recreate the Qu'ran. For him, and any of those who share the belief, I wish to know by what standards you base this on. If someone were to match it, how would it be judged? Otherwise, if you just deny that anything can, that is a presupposition and is not an argument by any standards.

Anyone mind sharing?

It is discussed in this article here: link.

 

[loverOfTruth]

One thing that Lover of Truth expressed without fully going into detail about was that no man can recreate the Qu'ran. For him, and any of those who share the belief, I wish to know by what standards you base this on. If someone were to match it, how would it be judged? Otherwise, if you just deny that anything can, that is a presupposition and is not an argument by any standards.

Anyone mind sharing?

It is discussed in this article here: link.

Daviso452 is not talking about that - the question is regarding the challenge to reproduce a similar chapter like in the Qura'n. I'll respond soon with the answer.

 

[fishy]

You yourself is exposing your intentions and dishonesty. You did not even read the link I provided that included the response. So I'll paste some part of it here :

The Prophet (peace be upon him) permitted the writing of the Quran and prohibited the writing of anything else along with it, so Abu Bakr did not order anything to be written down except what has already been written down, and that is the reason why he (Zayd bin Thaabit) refrained from writing the last verses from Surah al Bara'a until he found it written, for he already knew it and had people who remembered it along with him.

And Ahmad said: Ali bin Bahr said that Ali bin Muhammad bin Salma on the authority of Muhammad ibn Ishaq on the authority of Yahya bin Ebad on the authority of his father Ebad bin Zubayr may Allah be pleased with him said that Al Harith (Zayd) approached bin Khuzaymah with these two verses from the ending of Surah Al Bara'a (Surah 9) 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves' to Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab so he said 'Who is with you on this?' He said 'I don't know' and by Allah I testify that I heard it from the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him and I learned it and memorized it then Umar said: And I testify that I heard it from the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him. (Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Commentary on Surah 9:129, Source)

So as we can clearly see there is no doubt at all regarding the authenticity of these verses. The companions already knew that these verses existed. However, the only issue was that since the caliph was so strict regarding the collection of the Quran, Zayd needed to find the evidence written down and not only memorized. Even after the verses were found with Abi Khuzaymah, the rest of the other companions remembered them and that strengthened the authority of these verses. This only goes to show how strict and cautious the Muslims were when they collected the Quran.

Please do not come back with a lie without reading the Entire response.

And regarding Hadith - there are strong Hadith(historically authentic and no issues in the chain of narration) and there are weak Hadith (where there could be a missing link in the chain of narration or memory issue with one of the person in the chain of narration etc). So there are no issues with Strong Hadith and the Hadith are clearly identified as Weak or Strong. So you could just rely on the Strong Hadiths.

Show me where in this or anywhere else in your Hadiths it is mentioned that the Hafiz remembered these verses, I can't see it. In fact this proof you brought says something completely different and yet agrees with my quote from Sahih Buqari and in fact only mentions one of the verses. Look
Even after the verses were found with Abi Khuzaymah, the rest of the other companions remembered them and that strengthened the authority of these verses
Do you notice that it says after the verses were found.
Now bring me the proof that proves your contention that I have accessed disreputable sites to obtain this information, that I am dishonest and that any of the Hafiz remembered these TWO verses and that the Hadith of Sahih Buqari is a lie.
It really is your honesty that has seriously been brought into question, by none other than yourself.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Show me where in this or anywhere else in your Hadiths it is mentioned that the Hafiz remembered these verses, I can't see it. In fact this proof you brought says something completely different and yet agrees with my quote from Sahih Buqari and in fact only mentions one of the verses. Look
Even after the verses were found with Abi Khuzaymah, the rest of the other companions remembered them and that strengthened the authority of these verses
Do you notice that it says after the verses were found.
Now bring me the proof that proves your contention that I have accessed disreputable sites to obtain this information, that I am dishonest and that any of the Hafiz remembered these TWO verses and that the Hadith of Sahih Buqari is a lie.
It really is your honesty that has seriously been brought into question, by none other than yourself.

Ok, I'll give you the benefit of doubt that you truly didn't understand what that article explained as proof of those 2 verses not being missing. However, what threw me off when I claimed your dishonesty is that you claim to know so much about Islam to the point where you are actually quoting from Hadith and arguing and you didn't even know the most commonly used English translations of the Qur'an (saying those are from a different book) as I have stated in another post of mine. So you see it wasn't for no reason. Anyway, I am sorry for the usage of those words regardless of the situation.

Now let me explain one last time what that article is really saying regarding the proof. First of all, I never said that the Hadith you quoted from Sahih Bukhari is fake. It is a correct Hadith. But if you just pick that Hadith regarding that verse, it would not be complete.

So, what they were saying is basically that for any verse to be included as part of the compiled Qur'an they needed 2 witnesses (written, memorized). However, that Hadith says that Zaid didn't find those verses with anyone other than Khuzaymah. But it doesn't conclude whether that made it valid for those verses to be included in the Qur'an or not. So that's when they quoted the next Hadith related as part of explanation from Ibn Kathir. Let me explain what the other Hadith says. It says Zaid asked Khuzaymah, is there anyone else with you who can be a witness to this verse (to make 2 witnesses) ? And Umar replied that he had heard the verse from Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). With those 2 witnesses it makes those verses valid to be included in the Qur'an. Hope this clarifies it and now you can read the qoute again as follows :

"And Ahmad said: Ali bin Bahr said that Ali bin Muhammad bin Salma on the authority of Muhammad ibn Ishaq on the authority of Yahya bin Ebad on the authority of his father Ebad bin Zubayr may Allah be pleased with him said that Al Harith (Zayd) approached bin Khuzaymah with these two verses from the ending of Surah Al Bara'a (Surah 9) 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves' to Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab so he said 'Who is with you on this?' He said 'I don't know' and by Allah I testify that I heard it from the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him and I learned it and memorized it then Umar said: And I testify that I heard it from the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him. (Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Commentary on Surah 9:129, Source)"

I saw your comment on 2 verse vs. 1. Please note that even the Hadith you quoted doesn't state the 2 verses, it is only 1 verse and some other even shortens the first verse. They are basically saying the last 2 verses of Surah Taubah starting from ... . Hope it makes sense too.

 

[fishy]

Ok, I'll give you the benefit of doubt that you truly didn't understand what that article explained as proof of those 2 verses not being missing. However, what threw me off when I claimed your dishonesty is that you claim to know so much about Islam to the point where you are actually quoting from Hadith and arguing and you didn't even know the most commonly used English translations of the Qur'an (saying those are from a different book) as I have stated in another post of mine. So you see it wasn't for no reason. Anyway, I am sorry for the usage of those words regardless of the situation.

Now let me explain one last time what that article is really saying regarding the proof. First of all, I never said that the Hadith you quoted from Sahih Bukhari is fake. It is a correct Hadith. But if you just pick that Hadith regarding that verse, it would not be complete.

So, what they were saying is basically that for any verse to be included as part of the compiled Qur'an they needed 2 witnesses (written, memorized). However, that Hadith says that Zaid didn't find those verses with anyone other than Khuzaymah. But it doesn't conclude whether that made it valid for those verses to be included in the Qur'an or not. So that's when they quoted the next Hadith related as part of explanation from Ibn Kathir. Let me explain what the other Hadith says. It says Zaid asked Khuzaymah, is there anyone else with you who can be a witness to this verse (to make 2 witnesses) ? And Umar replied that he had heard the verse from Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). With those 2 witnesses it makes those verses valid to be included in the Qur'an. Hope this clarifies it and now you can read the qoute again as follows :

"And Ahmad said: Ali bin Bahr said that Ali bin Muhammad bin Salma on the authority of Muhammad ibn Ishaq on the authority of Yahya bin Ebad on the authority of his father Ebad bin Zubayr may Allah be pleased with him said that Al Harith (Zayd) approached bin Khuzaymah with these two verses from the ending of Surah Al Bara'a (Surah 9) 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves' to Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab so he said 'Who is with you on this?' He said 'I don't know' and by Allah I testify that I heard it from the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him and I learned it and memorized it then Umar said: And I testify that I heard it from the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him. (Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Commentary on Surah 9:129, Source)"

I saw your comment on 2 verse vs. 1. Please note that even the Hadith you quoted doesn't state the 2 verses, it is only 1 verse and some other even shortens the first verse. They are basically saying the last 2 verses of Surah Taubah starting from ... . Hope it makes sense too.

This raises several questions.
Did Khuzaymah have a written copy of these verses?
If he did why did he need to swear to memorising it?
If he had the written copy of the verses then relying on the testimony of Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab would have been redundant if the Hafiz already had it memorised, as that would have fulfilled the demand for 2 sources (written and memorised), yes?
If Khuzaymah only had the memory of these verses, then the testimony of Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab does not fulfill the demand of a written and a memorised source, but simply supplies 2 memorised sources, yes?
If the Hafiz had memorised these verses then they and Khuzaymah could have supplied these 2 non legitimate sources couldn't they?

 

[Rational_Mind]

Daviso452 is not talking about that - the question is regarding the challenge to reproduce a similar chapter like in the Qura'n. I'll respond soon with the answer.

It is quite well covered in that topic. Yes the title is not the same but if you read through it you will see what I mean.

Additionally a more brief also from same source but not that article:

'And if you are in doubts as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call upon your helpers besides Allah, if you are truthful.'

This challenge of the Holy Quran claims unique merit for the language and contents of the Holy Quran. The challenge is accompanied by the warning that those who deny the Holy Quran will never be able to produce anything like it. The merit of the Holy Quran to which the challenge pertains comprehends everything - its spiritual and moral teaching, its prophecies, its appeal, and not least its language and style. The challenge is addressed to all and sundry. Let them all match their literary productions with the Holy Quran. In one place we read:

'This is a Book whose verses have been made unchangeable and then have been expounded in detail. It is from the One, Wise and Aware.'

 

[Rational_Mind]

This raises several questions.
Did Khuzaymah have a written copy of these verses?
If he did why did he need to swear to memorising it?
If he had the written copy of the verses then relying on the testimony of Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab would have been redundant if the Hafiz already had it memorised, as that would have fulfilled the demand for 2 sources (written and memorised), yes?
If Khuzaymah only had the memory of these verses, then the testimony of Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab does not fulfill the demand of a written and a memorised source, but simply supplies 2 memorised sources, yes?
If the Hafiz had memorised these verses then they and Khuzaymah could have supplied these 2 non legitimate sources couldn't they?

(4) Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: When we collected the fragramentary manuscripts of the Qur'an into copies, I missed one of the Verses of Surat al-Ahzab which I used to hear Allah's Apostle reading. Finally I did not find it with anybody except khuzaima Al-Ansari, whose witness was considered by Allah's Apostle equal to the witness of two men. (And that Verse was 'Among the believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah.' (Book #60, Hadith #307)

You seem to miss a lot of information. Maybe you don't open links? Are you on a mobile device or something. The order given when collecting the Quran was that, even if you have it orally you need a backing in writing. So if we collectively study the incident it is obvious that the only sensible conclusion is that he had heard it so hence he went around looking for it in writing. He had a lot of people who had heard it as well and had it in memory but the amount of care they took was so great that they also wanted to see it in writing. Double Verification. I would humbly and most kindly advise you to study the compilation of the Quran further before asking questions. Sometimes it feels like another person is becoming a data processing centre for someone else. There is great character in a person who fully thinks through something, invests time, and is not in a haste to ask questions.

 

[fishy]

(4) Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: When we collected the fragramentary manuscripts of the Qur'an into copies, I missed one of the Verses of Surat al-Ahzab which I used to hear Allah's Apostle reading. Finally I did not find it with anybody except khuzaima Al-Ansari, whose witness was considered by Allah's Apostle equal to the witness of two men. (And that Verse was 'Among the believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah.' (Book #60, Hadith #307)

You seem to miss a lot of information. Maybe you don't open links? Are you on a mobile device or something. The order given when collecting the Quran was that, even if you have it orally you need a backing in writing. So if we collectively study the incident it is obvious that the only sensible conclusion is that he had heard it so hence he went around looking for it in writing. He had a lot of people who had heard it as well and had it in memory but the amount of care they took was so great that they also wanted to see it in writing. Double Verification. I would humbly and most kindly advise you to study the compilation of the Quran further before asking questions. Sometimes it feels like another person is becoming a data processing centre for someone else. There is great character in a person who fully thinks through something, invests time, and is not in a haste to ask questions.

I acknowledge readily your fear of questions, hence your inability to answer mine. That doesn't however permit you to attack my character, as you have done since this conversation began, as you still do.
Answer the bloody questions, try to overcome your fear and I may be prepared to respond to what you've alleged here. There are only 5 questions answer each one, please.

 

[Rational_Mind]

I acknowledge readily your fear of questions, hence your inability to answer mine. That doesn't however permit you to attack my character, as you have done since this conversation began, as you still do.
Answer the bloody questions, try to overcome your fear and I may be prepared to respond to what you've alleged here. There are only 5 questions answer each one, please.

Waste of my time. You really think this issue is great that I fear it. I am not your computer. You ruined your own reputation from your earlier posts. Presenting partial pieces to shape everything to your opinion. You are a baby crying to be spoon fed. Your questions arise from fear that you cannot be wrong. Since you feel one religion now has errors and people didn't answer your questions you try to prove each and every one derailed. You are in a haste and full of fear. Mentally repeating that this must be wrong and I must do anything possible to prove it. Whether it is presenting partial statements our ruining entire intelligent discussion with your non sense.

 

[fishy]

Waste of my time. You really think this issue is great that I fear it. I am not your computer. You ruined your own reputation from your earlier posts. Presenting partial pieces to shape everything to your opinion. You are a baby crying to be spoon fed. Your questions arise from fear that you cannot be wrong. Since you feel one religion now has errors and people didn't answer your questions you try to prove each and every one derailed. You are in a haste and full of fear. Mentally repeating that this must be wrong and I must do anything possible to prove it. Whether it is presenting partial statements our ruining entire intelligent discussion with your non sense.

1:Show me any legitimate reference in a Hadith that states categorically that khuzaima Al-Ansari had a written copy of those verses.
2:Why did khuzaima Al-Ansari swear to memorising those verses? If he had those verses in written form? Were they questioning him as when he wrote them down, because no-one else remembered those verses? Why does your quote from Surah Al Bara'a state after the verses were found with Abi Khuzaymah, the rest of the other companions remembered them?
3:Show me anywhere in a Hadith that states that any Hafiz had memorised those verses.
4:Keep in mind this from Sahih Bukhari:
So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else. You do notice, I hope, that Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari says he searched even of those who had memorised it.
5:Evidence of these verses being in written form would seem, from the evidence you have presented, non existent.
Since the unbroken chain is the core proof of your book being the absolute word of god and his promise to protect it, I understand your fear of objectively examining these things, but I have no such fear.
Would you like to address my questions and contentions in order that you can actually prove this alleged unbroken chain, from the time of your prophet until today?
Since the evidence we have seen so far is at the very best inconclusive and at worst proof of the opposite.

 

[fishy]

Oh BTW, I like how you accuse me of ruining my own reputation by quoting the International Islamic University of Malaysia. :biglaugh:

 

[loverOfTruth]

This raises several questions.
Did Khuzaymah have a written copy of these verses?
If he did why did he need to swear to memorising it?
If he had the written copy of the verses then relying on the testimony of Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab would have been redundant if the Hafiz already had it memorised, as that would have fulfilled the demand for 2 sources (written and memorised), yes?
If Khuzaymah only had the memory of these verses, then the testimony of Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab does not fulfill the demand of a written and a memorised source, but simply supplies 2 memorised sources, yes?
If the Hafiz had memorised these verses then they and Khuzaymah could have supplied these 2 non legitimate sources couldn't they?

Ok read the Hadith again - "I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else" - does that sound in memory or writing ? I would never be able to 'find' something in someone's memory. So it was talking about the written version. But since Zaid was the one collecting it He wanted a witness someone other than him who would be the witness of the memorization. So Umar's witness makes that part complete. Now to answer the other question as to why would Khuzaymah still swear to the memorization - most of those who had the verses written still had them memorized. So as I have mentioned that the second Hadith basically completes the whole story regarding this verse and there they were trying to find the witness of memorization. So Khuzaymah swore that He knew that he memorized it but didn't know anyone else. That's when Umar replied that he also heard it from the Prophet(pbuh). I don't think it can get any clearer than this and it answers all the questions you asked.

the unbroken chain is the core proof of your book being the absolute word of god and his promise to protect it

And you are trying to prove by showing that you found only 2 verses (out of 6000+ verses of the entire Qur'an) which may have a 'broken chain' ? Well, first of all, it wouldn't be a broken chain at all since it was found with at least one person tracing back to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) even if you just take the Hadith you quoted. And secondly, I have shown you that that's not the case.

 

[fishy]

The Hafiz, answer the question of the Hafiz. Why was a companion necessary for these verses and every other verse was confirmed, allegedly, by Hafiz.
Why was no other written record recorded as requiring the confirmation of a companion?
Wanna try that?