Is This A Lie?

[Britedream]

I don't think you have understood what it is saying. It is saying that a lie is still a lie, even when it is not successful in deceiving somebody.

This is what it saying:
"Properly speaking, therefore, lying is not a type of deceiving. "

This is the type of deceiving:http://www.dictionary.com/browse/deceiver

verb (used with object), deceived,deceiving.
1.
to mislead by a false appearance or statement;delude:
They deceived the enemy by disguising thedestroyer as a freighter.
2.
to be unfaithful to (one's spouse or lover).
3.
Archaic. to while away (time).

Your definition pickups up the first type, which puts it at odd with "Properly speaking...." statement above.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Semantics

Are you disagreeing with what I said, and if so, why?

You said: "....fail to admit to oneself that something is true."

I responded: "I would describe that as self-deception."

 

[Rick O'Shez]

This is what it saying:
"Properly speaking, therefore, lying is not a type of deceiving. "

You still haven't understood what is being said here. It is saying that technically lying is not the same as deceiving because the person being lied to might not actually be deceived. It is NOT saying that lying doesn't involve the intention to deceive.

And look at all the other definitions of lying in this thread, they all stress the intention to deceive.

 

[columbus]

Yes.

People are making this more complicated than it need to be.

To me, the problem with the OP is that it's too simplistic to get to the heart of the matter. Why b said that they were going to the shop matters more than whether or not they did, if the discussion is about lying and the morality of verbal communication. One could easily lie for very good ethical reasons, and one could tell the truth for appallingly evil reasons.
It's the intentions that matter, not the accuracy.
Tom

 

[savagewind]

Are you disagreeing with what I said, and if so, why?

You said: "....fail to admit to oneself that something is true."

I responded: "I would describe that as self-deception."

I don't know. I think self-deception means to lie to one's self.

 

[savagewind]

It is possible to lie to one's self on purpose. Let's say I smack my sister on the head with a stick. She runs home perhaps bleeding and I
am shocked at what I have done. I hide in the woods hating myself for loosing control. I make up a story in my own head for myself to
ease the pain. Sometime I go home.

Years later the scene I remember is ME getting hit by a falling board. I made up a lie so that I might feel better and I believed it. The lie became the truth
for me. Was I not lying to myself?

 

[Britedream]

You still haven't understood what is being said here. It is saying that technically lying is not the same as deceiving because the person being lied to might not actually be deceived. It is NOT saying that lying doesn't involve the intention to deceive.

And look at all the other definitions of lying in this thread, they all stress the intention to deceive.

"they all stress the intention to deceive."; it means you deceive with intention to do it; to distinguish it from deceiving someone while you didn't mean to . So basically it means, deceive.

Pleasure discussing with you.

Have a good day!

 

[McBell]

It is possible to lie to one's self on purpose. Let's say I smack my sister on the head with a stick. She runs home perhaps bleeding and I
am shocked at what I have done. I hide in the woods hating myself for loosing control. I make up a story in my own head for myself to
ease the pain. Sometime I go home.

Years later the scene I remember is ME getting hit by a falling board. I made up a lie so that I might feel better and I believed it. The lie became the truth
for me. Was I not lying to myself?

except the lie did not become a truth...

You are lied to yourself till you believed the lie is the truth.

 

[McBell]

"they all stress the intention to deceive."; it means you deceive with intention to do it; to distinguish it from deceiving someone while you didn't mean to . So basically it means, deceive.

Pleasure discussing with you.

Have a good day!

Does this mean you are flying home now?

 

[Acim]

Say person a asks person b where he is going. Person b replies "the shop" but has no intention of going to the shop and instead is planning a visit to a friend. However, on his way to see his friend he does indeed change his mind and go to the shop.

Did person b lie?

Tough one.

My first response was same as what I read on first couple pages of this thread: intent was there to deceive the person asking the question.

But from person a's perspective, it cannot be a lie. The question isn't framed in OP as "where are you planning on going?" It is where are you going? So, in reality in that moment, person b can't say with 100% certainty that they know the answer to that. They can pretend like they do by sharing what they are planning, but again, that's not the question being asked.

So, lied to themselves perhaps, but when they said the shop, they answered the question that was asked. If they went to the shop, then the truth was told, not a lie.

I somewhat question the "no intention" part as that seems deceptive to us looking at this. Like if I say I have no intention of, I dunno, eating a hamburger today. Even say that to myself, and I do, then okay I lied to myself. But if someone else is involved and I say to them I'll be eating a hamburger today, how would that person ever know it was a lie, unless I volunteer my thoughts? Even then, I'd think that person would see it as no big deal, or that from their perspective the truth was told.

Such that the follow up from person b in OP would be: I told you earlier I was going to the shop, but I didn't intend on going there and was planning on going to a friend's instead, but then I went to the shop. To which person a would say, as far as I'm concerned, you told me the truth, and your added layer of honesty just makes it more clear to me you are always truthful to me.

 

[Britedream]

Does this mean you are flying home now?

Not yet sweety

 

[McBell]

Not yet sweety

ah, not done playing pigeon chess?

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Say person a asks person b where he is going. Person b replies "the shop" but has no intention of going to the shop and instead is planning a visit to a friend. However, on his way to see his friend he does indeed change his mind and go to the shop.

Did person b lie?

God some how changed his mind and kept him truthful. LOL

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

His intention was to lie, and then .....

 

[savagewind]

except the lie did not become a truth...

You are lied to yourself till you believed the lie is the truth.

That is correct. THEY seem to say that to believe something that isn't true isn't believing a lie. The question was to THOSE people.

 

[Britedream]

ah, not done playing pigeon chess?

Not really, he is saying, as I understood him, with intention to deceive, is not deceiving, but I explained to him what I think that meant. I saw us going no where, so I stopped.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

But he did lie at first so if its something harmful to begin with then its more than that whatever; its a lie. But as you described the story in all harmlessness its just one of those silly situations.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

for example I intended to go somewhere today but that didn't happen the way I said it prior. It doesn't make me a liar because I expected to do so.
I'm also not a very skilled prophet. LOL, working on that lol.

 

[McBell]

That is correct. THEY seem to say that to believe something that isn't true isn't believing a lie. The question was to THOSE people.

my bad.

 

[McBell]

But he did lie at first so if its something harmful to begin with then its more than that whatever; its a lie. But as you described the story in all harmlessness its just one of those silly situations.

I disagree.
He said he was going somewhere he had no intentions at the time of telling of going.
That is a lie.

That he went there later doe snot make the lie a non-lie.