Is This A Lie?

[McBell]

The problem there is to do with wishful thinking, denial and confirmation bias. You could say it is a form of self-deception, but I wouldn't say it is a deliberate lie.

How many times being corrected before repeating the same falsehood becomes a lie?

 

[McBell]

Suppose Bob detests his nosy and gossipy coworker Jane, because she likes to eavesdrop and spread rumors.
So one day, when she is close by, he picks up his phone and dials his own phone number. He speaks in hushed voice to his answering machine about his and Janes boss. He whispers about an affair the boss is having with the department managers wife. It is pure fiction, but he is only saying it to a machine.
By the time Jane gets done with her gossiping, the boss knows who told his department manager this bogus story. But Jane can't explain how she learned this because Bob just shrugs and says "I dunno what she's talking about ".
Jane gets fired, in an unusually ugly way.

Did Bob lie?
Tom

Yes, bob lied

 

[Rick O'Shez]

An intention to decieve is not necessary , please, read this: http://home.wlu.edu/~mahonj/DefinitionLying2009.pdf

No, it really is necessary. The article you just referenced supports what I say. Read the initial definitions more carefully and you will see.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No, except if he tries to convince others of the lies he believes then it becomes lying imo.

I disagree. If a delusion person really believes his/her delusion, then he/she is not lying when telling other people, because there is no intention to deceive, no intention to tell untruths or falsehoods.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Suppose Bob detests his nosy and gossipy coworker Jane, because she likes to eavesdrop and spread rumors.
So one day, when she is close by, he picks up his phone and dials his own phone number. He speaks in hushed voice to his answering machine about his and Janes boss. He whispers about an affair the boss is having with the department managers wife. It is pure fiction, but he is only saying it to a machine.
By the time Jane gets done with her gossiping, the boss knows who told his department manager this bogus story. But Jane can't explain how she learned this because Bob just shrugs and says "I dunno what she's talking about ".
Jane gets fired, in an unusually ugly way.

Did Bob lie?
Tom

Yes.

People are making this more complicated than it need to be.

 

[Tumah]

In context No 3. is consistent with the other sub-definitions.

See the definitions here too: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lie

Context? I think you have to get to know your audience better.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Context? I think you have to get to know your audience better.

In the context of the other definitions. All the definitions of "lie" I have looked at stress the intention to deceive, the knowing telling of an untruth or falsehood.

 

[Tumah]

In the context of the other definitions. All the definitions of "lie" I have looked at stress the intention to deceive, the knowing telling of an untruth or falsehood.

Yes. I understood what you meant.

 

[savagewind]

I disagree. If a delusion person really believes his/her delusion, then he/she is not lying when telling other people, because there is no intention to deceive, no intention to tell untruths or falsehoods.

You do not think that by telling others, he wants them to go along with his delusion? I call that intent.

Mark 9:42

I do not see "intentionally" there.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You do not think that by telling others, he wants them to go along with his delusion? I call that intent.

But the intent would be to share his views, not to deceive others.

 

[savagewind]

But the intent would be to share his views, not to deceive others.

Maybe we don't know what to deceive means.

(of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.

fail to admit to oneself that something is true.

Or, even intent.

intention or purpose.

resolved or determined to do (something).

showing earnest and eager attention.

 

[savagewind]

I think the argument is really about if an untrue statement (a lie or not a lie) is meant for mischief. If it isn't, according to many people, it isn't a lie.
I disagree. An untrue statement said to another for him to believe it is a lie, even if the reason is not for mischief, even if the reason is purely innocent.

 

[Ana.J]

It is lie in intention. The question is if that is beneficial for the relationship or not...I think that every lie is like a small hole in the boat of your relationship....

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Ah the question becomes then - as my dear old mum would say - is it a "white lie" - or a "dark lie"..??...

A white lie - may be told to bring BENEFIT - such as you face an operation and the doc says "theres nothing to worry about, its just routine" - that a white lie - not actual truth as obviously there is always a risk in this example - but to state it so with the INTENT to bring peace of mind makes the "lie" to be acceptable and a legitmate tool, a "good thing"....

Dark lies - deception for nefarious reasons - NEVER a good thing at all... Persobally I cannot abide the nefariou sliar and take great pleasure on destroying their false reality whenever I encounter it - all about truth - they can hold their delusions if they so wish - but to then force those lies upon others as "truth" is never acceptable to my Mind... Indeed this is a major problem with the world - we accept blatant lies told as truth all the time and do nothing to address the imbalance - hence the world lives an illusion of lies - agreed to beforehand and now unquestioned - humans really are quite stupid when it comes down to it...lol...

 

[Britedream]

No, it really is necessary. The article you just referenced supports what I say. Read the initial definitions more carefully and you will see.

This is what the article says:

"There is no universally agreed upon definition of lying.1 It is commonly agreed that, as contrasted with the verb ‘deceive,’ which is a success or achievement verb like ‘persuade’ or ‘cure,’ the verb ‘lie’ is not a success or achievement verb.2 The speech act of lying is not a perlocutionary speech act. That is, whether or not an act of lying has occurred does not depend on whether a particular effect, such as a false belief, has been produced.3 A lie that is ‘seen through’ by its audience while it is being told to them, and hence, that does not deceive them, is still a lie.4 Properly speaking, therefore, lying is not a type of deceiving. Beyond this, there is little consensus on defining lying. "

You can disagree with it, but it says,"It is commonly agreed that....."

 

[Rick O'Shez]

This is what the article says:

"There is no universally agreed upon definition of lying.1 It is commonly agreed that, as contrasted with the verb ‘deceive,’ which is a success or achievement verb like ‘persuade’ or ‘cure,’ the verb ‘lie’ is not a success or achievement verb.2 The speech act of lying is not a perlocutionary speech act. That is, whether or not an act of lying has occurred does not depend on whether a particular effect, such as a false belief, has been produced.3 A lie that is ‘seen through’ by its audience while it is being told to them, and hence, that does not deceive them, is still a lie.4 Properly speaking, therefore, lying is not a type of deceiving. Beyond this, there is little consensus on defining lying. "

You can disagree with it, but it says,"It is commonly agreed that....."

I don't think you have understood what it is saying. It is saying that a lie is still a lie, even when it is not successful in deceiving somebody.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

fail to admit to oneself that something is true.

I would describe that as self-deception.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

A white lie - may be told to bring BENEFIT - such as you face an operation and the doc says "theres nothing to worry about, its just routine" - that a white lie - not actual truth as obviously there is always a risk in this example - but to state it so with the INTENT to bring peace of mind makes the "lie" to be acceptable and a legitmate tool, a "good thing"....

I think "white" lies are tricky, in the sense that we may tell ourselves we are protecting somebody else, but there is often an element of protecting ourselves too. The other difficulty is that people are generally pretty good at sensing when they are being lied to by somebody they know well, so well-intended while lies might erode the level of trust in a relationship.

 

[savagewind]

I would describe that as self-deception.

Semantics

 

[McBell]

Semantics

the whole thread is semantics...