Is this humane?

[Eddi]

What's this "free" will you speak of? Nonexistent. Our lives are always dictated by the decisions of others. As the web of Wyrd ensnares.

We have constrained free will

We cannot help what cards we are dealt

But we can choose what to do with them

We can judge a person's character by how they deal with circumstances that are beyond their control

Lots of people have had a tough or abusive childhood, fortunately not me

But that is no excuse for being abusive or horrible to others

It is an explanation not an excuse

There is a saying: you can only blame your parents until you're twenty

And Hitler's childhood was typical of that time and place yet he turned out to be extraordinarily evil and most didn't

 

[The Hammer]

I should take that as a compliment

That's because We are only Human. Even Rag'n Bone knows only the All-Father and Tyr judge, even if he believes in them by another name.

 

[Eddi]

That's because We are only Human. Even Rag'n Bone knows only the All-Father and Tyr judge, even if he believes in them by another name.

You reminded me of this

"Shoot them all and let God sort them out"

 

[The Hammer]

We have constrained free will

We cannot help what cards we are dealt

But we can choose what to do with them

We can judge a person's character by how they deal with circumstances that are beyond their control

Lots of people have had a tough or abusive childhood, fortunately not me

But that is no excuse for being abusive or horrible to others

It is an explanation not an excuse

There is a saying: you can only blame your parents until you're twenty

And Hitler's childhood was typical of that time and place yet he turned out to be extraordinarily evil and most didn't

Hitler, like Trump, is a symptom of a Systemic problem, not a cause.

Do you treat the pneumonia killing you (Hitler/Trump), or the pathogen and rot that caused it (Wider Societal Issues). Or better yet, scrape away the wart, leaving the root to fester.

Edited for spelling.

 

[Eddi]

Do you treat the pneumonia killing you (Hitler/Trump), or the pathogen and rot that caused it (Wider Societal Issues)

Both!

Nazi Germany can be explained both socially and in terms of individuals

 

[We Never Know]

Here are two pics of what the cells are like in a certain American "super max" prison that is known as "The Alcatraz Of The Rockies"

It is used to house inmates who are a risk to national security and whose escape would be dangerous

Drug lords, terrorists, spies/traitors, mob bosses. Those kind of people

Inmates are kept in them for practically 24 hours a day but if they are well behaved they are eventually given a TV to watch

Is keeping people in such tiny cells humane?

Or do certain offenders forfeit their right to be treated humanely?

I wouldn't want to be kept in one that's for sure

But then I haven't killed anyone and am not a threat to national security

Maybe it is in the public's interest for such people to be banged up in such conditions?


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How many of those people did inhumane things to get there?

Say a person robs and kills another. That's very inhumane IMO.

I'm sorry won't bring back the life they took. Why should they be treated any better than the inhumane person they are?

 

[Eddi]

How many of those people did inhumane things to get there?

Say a person robs and kills another. That's very inhumane IMO.

I'm sorry won't bring back the life they took. Why should they be treated any better than the inhumane person they are?

I agree with you

 

[The Hammer]

Both!

As a doctor, then you've killed the patient via overmedication. Not treated the symptoms.

Nazi Germany can be explained both socially and in terms of individuals

Sure, but Hitler is dead and gone, yet the Aryan Supremacy ideas he set forth live on today, no?

So what good did that death do? The way I see it, none. The problem is still here.

 

[Eddi]

As a doctor, then you've killed the patient via overmedication. Not treated the symptoms.

I think you have stretched the medical metaphor a bit too far!

In a society there are structures and individuals

Together these are mutually constitutive, together they make society and each other

If you want to solve a social problem you have to look at both

If you look at how Germany was de-nazified after the war you will see that this involved both punishing individuals and passing laws and a constitution to enforce democracy and clamp down on naziism, it worked on both social and individual levels

Sure, but Hitler is dead and gone, yet the Aryan Supremacy ideas he set forth live on today, no?

So what good did that death do? The way I see it, none. The problem is still here.

The eradication of Hitler and his regime stopped the whole of Europe being dominated by aryan supremacists

The problem would be way worse if they/he hadn't been crushed and eliminated by the allied armies

By now they would probably have long since acquired nukes

They would control huge portions of land, stretching from the Atlantic to Afghanistan

And they would be breeding SS men in human breeding facilities

There would be what George Orwell called "a horrible brainless empire"

Which would have been ruled by aryan supremacists

 

[The Hammer]

I think you have stretched the medical metaphor a bit too far!

In a society there are structures and individuals

Together these are mutually constitutive, together they make society and each other

If you want to solve a social problem you have to look at both

If you look at how Germany was de-nazified after the war you will see that this involved both punishing individuals and passing laws and a constitution to enforce democracy and clamp down on naziism, it worked on both social and individual levels

The eradication of Hitler and his regime stopped the whole of Europe being dominated by aryan supremacists

The problem would be way worse if they/he hadn't been crushed and eliminated by the allied armies

By now they would probably have long since acquired nukes

They would control huge portions of land, stretching from the Atlantic to Afghanistan

And they would be breeding SS men in human breeding facilities

There would be what George Orwell called "a horrible brainless empire"

Which would have been ruled by aryan supremacists

Agree to disagree.

Hammer
Out.

 

[icehorse]

Is keeping people in such tiny cells humane?

DETOUR ALERT !!!

I apologize, but I have to add this into the conversation, perhaps it'll be useful:

Horses are MUCH bigger than people, a standard horse weighs about 1000 pounds. Horses are of course prey animals, designed to run and graze and so on.

A large percentage of the world's horses spend 23 hours / day in a 12' x 12' stall. If they're lucky, they get "turned out" to get some exercise for an hour a day.

And of course, the owners of these horses typically see nothing wrong with the endless, supermax-esque torture they inflict on their horses. Horses they will tell you they love.

 

[Unfettered]

Here are two pics of what the cells are like in a certain American "super max" prison that is known as "The Alcatraz Of The Rockies"

It is used to house inmates who are a risk to national security and whose escape would be dangerous

Drug lords, terrorists, spies/traitors, mob bosses. Those kind of people

Inmates are kept in them for practically 24 hours a day but if they are well behaved they are eventually given a TV to watch

Is keeping people in such tiny cells humane?

Bodily imprisonment is never humane.

 

[McBell]

Hitler, like Trump, is a symptom of a Systemic problem, not a cause.

I disagree.
Yes they are both potentially symptoms of systematic problems.
However, they are also the cause of problems...

Seems it is a bit of an assumption that the systematic problems caused Trump/Hitler to be they way they are/were.
What made them different to be turned into what they are/were that it effected them and not the other millions of people who are also victims of the same systematic problems?

Do you treat the pneumonia killing you (Hitler/Trump),

Yes.
Deal with the symptoms until the anti biotics are done genociding the source...

Thus it is my opinion that this analogy actually hurts your case, not helps it.

or the pathogen and rot that caused it (Wider Societal Issues).

yes.
Interestingly enough, by killing it...

Thus it is my opinion that this analogy actually hurts your case, not helps it.

Or better yet, scrape away the wart, leaving the root to fester.

Actually, scrape away the wart to have better access to the root in order to kill it...

Thus it is my opinion that this analogy actually hurts your case, not helps it.

 

[We Never Know]

DETOUR ALERT !!!

I apologize, but I have to add this into the conversation, perhaps it'll be useful:

Horses are MUCH bigger than people, a standard horse weighs about 1000 pounds. Horses are of course prey animals, designed to run and graze and so on.

A large percentage of the world's horses spend 23 hours / day in a 12' x 12' stall. If they're lucky, they get "turned out" to get some exercise for an hour a day.

And of course, the owners of these horses typically see nothing wrong with the endless, supermax-esque torture they inflict on their horses. Horses they will tell you they love.

Those kinds of people shouldn't own horses. They are comparable to people who keep dogs on a chain and who shouldn't own dogs.

 

[Eddi]

Bodily imprisonment is never humane.

But that doesn't translate into "people shouldn't be locked up"

Consider people who are clearly dangerous to others: serial killers and rapists for example

 

[Koldo]

Prison, therapy, rehab. Same as anyone else. Killing someone doesn't bring back those already lost.

Nor does rehab.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Here are two pics of what the cells are like in a certain American "super max" prison that is known as "The Alcatraz Of The Rockies"

It is used to house inmates who are a risk to national security and whose escape would be dangerous

Drug lords, terrorists, spies/traitors, mob bosses. Those kind of people

Inmates are kept in them for practically 24 hours a day but if they are well behaved they are eventually given a TV to watch

Is keeping people in such tiny cells humane?

Or do certain offenders forfeit their right to be treated humanely?

I wouldn't want to be kept in one that's for sure

But then I haven't killed anyone and am not a threat to national security

Maybe it is in the public's interest for such people to be banged up in such conditions?


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Justice in USA is a compromise between rehabilitation, revenge and protecting society. The emphasis is upon protecting society, then revenge, then rehabilitation: in that order. It is about 30-40% humane treatment. The rules are that prisoners are to be treated as humans, so that is good. They are however confined, often not given good enough medical care though they do receive some care. The food often is terrible. Prison also is expensive. They charge you way over market price for anything you might need. In addition the guards are under-paid, so many are ripe for graft. In the past (and possibly in the present) prisons allowed gangs to operate within their gates. Prisons become a place where religions can recruit people, a place where almost any gift is cherished no matter what strings come attached. It is a place full of sociopaths, so much of the punishment can come from one's fellow prisoners rather than from the sentence given by the court. It can be very inhumane or relatively humane.

People who get out of our prisons don't usually want to go back in, however it is difficult for them to get back into society. We do poorly at helping them to do that. Some of the fifty states also never allow exoneration, such that once a person has been a felon they are a felon for life. This affects their ability to get jobs, voting and other rights such as their 2nd amendment rights. Other states allow exoneration eventually.

 

[Koldo]

I can't believe the thread degenerated into people feeling pity for whatever fate could befall Hitler...

 

[SalixIncendium]

I can't believe the thread degenerated into people feeling pity for whatever fate could befall Hitler...

It didn't. It "degenerated" into people thinking taking a life is wrong, and that some of us don't consider taking a life of someone who took a life as justice or morally correct.

But my compliments on a the outstanding straw man.

 

[Koldo]

It didn't. It "degenerated" into people thinking taking a life is wrong, and that some of us don't consider taking a life of someone who took a life as justice or morally correct.

Potato, patato.