It is possible that Jesus sinned.

[metis]

We don't "ignore" what's written in Torah. But since what is written in Torah is fulfilled in Jesus, when we become one body with him, we also become the fulfillment of Torah. Therefore, we embody Torah and do not objectify it as a "set of rules."

Jesus was a Jew, and because of that he was obligated to abide by Torah. If he taught otherwise, the scriptures refer to these people as "false prophets". One simply cannot logically say "I follow Torah but the Laws don't apply to me". That's an oxymoron because "Torah" means "Law".

And one can only "fulfill" the Law by being obedient to it. To do otherwise would be like me telling my wife that I cleaned the garage, yet the garage still looks like a pig-pen. Hey, maybe I should try that next time when my wife tells me to do something and I forget: "Honey, I fulfilled it".

Now, you as a gentile are not obligated to follow the Law.

 

[Ouroboros]

To do otherwise would be like me telling my wife that I cleaned the garage, yet the garage still looks like a pig-pen.

Unless you redefine the word "clean" to mean "something that looks like a pig-pen."

 

[metis]

Something that may help here:

Deuteronomy 42): "your G-d…shall not add to what I have commanded you or subtract."

Dt. 13(1): "You shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it or subtracting."

Dt. 13(5): "His commandment you shall observe, holding fast to Him alone."

Dt. 29(28): "Concerns us and our descendents forever, that we may carry out all the words of this Law."

Joshua 1(5): "I will not leave or forsake you…(7) observe the entire Law … do not swerve from it."

Psalms 19(8): "The Law of the Lord is perfect… (10) the ordinances of the Lord are true; all of them are just."

Ps. 119(160): "permanence is Your words chief trait, each of Your just ordinances is everlasting."

Isaiah 42(21): "pleased the Lord in His justice to make His Law great and glorious."

Is. 66(17): "they who eat swine’s flesh … shall all perish."

Baruch 4(1): "the Law endures forever."

 

[metis]

Unless you redefine the word "clean" to mean "something that looks like a pig-pen."

Do you think I could see that to her??? Hmmmmmmmm.

 

[metis]

Let me add this as well to any that are interested:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.





Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

 

[sojourner]

If sin is defined as "separated from God" then what does the "why have you forsaken me" mean?

The problem is that the act of sinning and being in a state of sin is mixed up. Act of sin is not "being separated from God" since it's a state. The state of sin can't mean the same as acting sinful, or Jesus would have acted sinful at the point when he was forsaken. Right? If Jesus became sin/sinner or took on sin, he was a sinner at that point, how else would you explain that he took it on him?

I don't think Jesus was forsaken. I think he was quoting Psalm 22 as a prayer of comfort.

"Taking on our sin" isn't the same thing as "being in a state of sin." Jesus "took on" our sin the moment he was crucified. That is, human sinfulness was foisted on him through the sinful act of terrorism (much in the same way that those in the Twin Towers had human sin foisted upon them through an act of terrorism).

 

[sojourner]

Jesus was a Jew, and because of that he was obligated to abide by Torah. If he taught otherwise, the scriptures refer to these people as "false prophets". One simply cannot logically say "I follow Torah but the Laws don't apply to me". That's an oxymoron because "Torah" means "Law".

Jesus didn't "abide by" Torah. Jesus embodied torah.

And one can only "fulfill" the Law by being obedient to it.

One can fulfill law by embodying it -- which Jesus did.

Now, you as a gentile are not obligated to follow the Law.

Right. And I don't follow it. I follow Jesus, who embodies it.

 

[Caladan]

Right. And I don't follow it. I follow Jesus, who embodies it.

It's like offering people to eat a chocolate fondant with the promise of not gaining any of the calories. No wonder Christianity gained so many numbers at some point.

 

[CMike]

Well, since Jesus is God, I don't see how it's possible that we're doing what you claim we're doing.

If he stated supposedly stated that he was praying to G-D, then by the process of elimination he wasn't G-D.

So? We have four gospels attributed to a Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, too. Doesn't mean that they were actually written by people with those names. IF David existed, he was likely illiterate. The story of David is HIGHLY mythic. In fact, the archaeological record does not support the existence of David or his kingdom, as they appear in the bible. You're going to have to do a whooooole lot better than give me what "the first line says."

Obviously, judaism is jewish scripture so I understand that you have no clue what it is about.

King David was one of the psalmists. He wrote 22. The conductor of the levites rotated, and a particular conductor wrote the other psalms.

Yah. So did the crucifixion. See a correlation there?

Jesus wasn't martyred, so your point is not cogent.

That is true to a degree he, was caught and executed.

However, since you seem to think he sacrificed himself, then he should have been happy to be executed. That was his mission, wasn't it? To sacrifice himself for everyone's sins.

He wasn't complaining; he was praying. You did say that Psalm 22 is a prayer, yes?

No, I didn't. It was a Psalm that was turned into a prayer. The actual Psalm 22 ended up praising G-D. I don't recall jesus praising G-D upon his death. Instead he was just whining to G-D, which doesn't make sense because he either; according to christians 1) was sacrificing himself 2) was god. Both of these make no sense.

He was both: fully human -- fully God.

That is contradictory. You are either fully human or fully G-D. If you are fully human you have limitations, G-D has no limitations. There is no benefit to limit himself.

Jesus is our best.

Your best is that if you sin against someone you apologize to that person, and don't do it again. YOU actually have to repent for your own sins.

Because someone got executed thousands of years ago has no influence whatsoever on the sins that you have committed. You, and you alone, are responsible for repenting for them.

 

[CMike]

No. Therefore, since he is God, he cannot sin, for sin is separation from God. God cannot be separated from God's self.

Yeah, but he wasn't G-D.

There can only be one G-D in any form. G-D said he was one, not one in many parts, but ONE.

By claiming to be a god or have divine power he committed a grave sin.

 

[metis]

Jesus didn't "abide by" Torah. Jesus embodied torah.

One can fulfill law by embodying it -- which Jesus did.

Right. And I don't follow it. I follow Jesus, who embodies it.

Nice try but it really doesn't work. Next time my wife tells me to do something and I forget, I don't think it's likely that if I say "I embodied it" that this'll work. Either Jesus observed Torah or he didn't, and if he didn't, and if he taught others to also ignore it, he's a "false prophet". There is literally nothing found in Torah that says one can get out of observing the Law by "embodying" it.

I have to leave now, but I'll be back in a couple of days, and what I hope to remember to do is to give you another way to look at Jesus that actually makes theological sense even from a Christian point of view and is also compliant with Torah.

 

[sojourner]

Nice try but it really doesn't work. Next time my wife tells me to do something and I forget, I don't think it's likely that if I say "I embodied it" that this'll work. Either Jesus observed Torah or he didn't, and if he didn't, and if he taught others to also ignore it, he's a "false prophet". There is literally nothing found in Torah that says one can get out of observing the Law by "embodying" it.

I have to leave now, but I'll be back in a couple of days, and what I hope to remember to do is to give you another way to look at Jesus that actually makes theological sense even from a Christian point of view and is also compliant with Torah.

By identifying the spirit of Torah as love of God and neighbor, Jesus did "observe" Torah, because Jesus always loved God and neighbor. Why? Because, as fully God, Jesus is love, and so cannot act outside his nature. Jesus not only did the outward "going through the motions," insofar as those "outward motions" were acts of love, he also embodied love, because he is love.

I'll be interested to see what you have to say when you come back.

 

[CMike]

Theological and mythic truths do not substitute for empirical fact in making empirical claims about Jesus.

See above.

Okay I can play the same game. Prove that jesus was god. Prove that jesus even existed. Did you see him?

Prove anything that happened regarding christianity during the time of jesus?

They were all myths.

Oh? Where did he get the title? How was he allowed to teach in Jewish synagogues? Who followed him? Answers: Jews, Jews, Jews. Jesus was Jewish, was recognized by Jews as a Rabbi, and gleaned followers from -- not only among faithful Jews, but from the Pharisees and scribes.

How do jews for jesus have rabbis? Unfortunately, "rabbi" is often used very lossely. Anyone can call themselves anything. However, he by far didn't teach judaism, as learned from the Torah.

By definition Christianity centers around him, rather than G-D.

Jesus didn't do that. Jesus led them closer to the God they knew -- according to Torah, apparently, since Jesus is, after all, the fulfillment of Torah.

There is no such thing as "fulfillment of the Torah".

The real G-D said that the laws must be kept by all generations.

The laws are perpetual.

Do not murder-perpetual
Do not committ murder-perpetual
Set up a court system- perpetual
Don't eat the limb of a live animal -perpetual

All the laws are perpetual.

In fact, by jesus stating that he is the fulfilment of the Torah he is with much arrogance challenging G-D who told the jews to keep it forever.

 

[CMike]

I don't think Jesus was forsaken. I think he was quoting Psalm 22 as a prayer of comfort.

"Taking on our sin" isn't the same thing as "being in a state of sin." Jesus "took on" our sin the moment he was crucified. That is, human sinfulness was foisted on him through the sinful act of terrorism (much in the same way that those in the Twin Towers had human sin foisted upon them through an act of terrorism).

How could he be forsaken and why would he need comfort? According to you he was G-D, right?

 

[CMike]

Jesus was a Jew, and because of that he was obligated to abide by Torah. If he taught otherwise, the scriptures refer to these people as "false prophets". One simply cannot logically say "I follow Torah but the Laws don't apply to me". That's an oxymoron because "Torah" means "Law".

Sounds like he would make a great member of congress.

And one can only "fulfill" the Law by being obedient to it. To do otherwise would be like me telling my wife that I cleaned the garage, yet the garage still looks like a pig-pen. Hey, maybe I should try that next time when my wife tells me to do something and I forget: "Honey, I fulfilled it".

Now, you as a gentile are not obligated to follow the Law.

Excellent points.

The way you fulfill the law, is by keeping it.

 

[CMike]

By identifying the spirit of Torah as love of God and neighbor, Jesus did "observe" Torah, because Jesus always loved God and neighbor. Why? Because, as fully God, Jesus is love, and so cannot act outside his nature. Jesus not only did the outward "going through the motions," insofar as those "outward motions" were acts of love, he also embodied love, because he is love.

I'll be interested to see what you have to say when you come back.

There are still 612 other commandments.

BTW the importance of "love thy neighbor" was highlighted by Rabbi Hillel.

 

[CMike]

Nice try but it really doesn't work. Next time my wife tells me to do something and I forget, I don't think it's likely that if I say "I embodied it" that this'll work. Either Jesus observed Torah or he didn't, and if he didn't, and if he taught others to also ignore it, he's a "false prophet". There is literally nothing found in Torah that says one can get out of observing the Law by "embodying" it.

I have to leave now, but I'll be back in a couple of days, and what I hope to remember to do is to give you another way to look at Jesus that actually makes theological sense even from a Christian point of view and is also compliant with Torah.

Excellent points.

It seems that christians themselves disagree a great deal of who jesus was.

I think in judaism, among jews, you will not find much disagreement of who G-D is.

 

[metis]

By identifying the spirit of Torah as love of God and neighbor, Jesus did "observe" Torah, because Jesus always loved God and neighbor. Why? Because, as fully God, Jesus is love, and so cannot act outside his nature. Jesus not only did the outward "going through the motions," insofar as those "outward motions" were acts of love, he also embodied love, because he is love.

I'll be interested to see what you have to say when you come back.

CMike already dealt with this as compassion and justice are two of the main hallmarks of Torah.

Yes, I will get back with you on this, so have a nice weekend.

 

[metis]

Excellent points.

The way you fulfill the law, is by keeping it.

Thanks, and I'll see ya on the other end of Shabbos.

 

[CMike]

Thanks, and I'll see ya on the other end of Shabbos.

Good shabbos.