Jehovah

[savagewind]

Is that who you think he is?

You do realize that the patriarchs like Noah, Job and Abraham were those who led their entire families in worship and all existed before the nation of Israel was formed?

After that no one worshipped God by themselves.

As I have said before 2 Peter 3:3 is not about unbelievers riduculing the believers in Jesus. It is about the "believers" in Jesus who seem to think they must fashion themselves after Israel. But you seem to be what you say I am. NOT LISTENING.

 

[Ingledsva]

... Genesis is the foundation for the whole Bible. But let’s look at 1 Corinthians 15:45 first, And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Yes God formed man into a living soul but that is only half of the story; the first half is written in Genesis before the fall which tells us who Adam was before the fall.

Both Adam’s were made from God, in His image and Likeness; the first Adam had to fall or there was no need for a second Adam; that is why God created him innocent; God set Adam up to fall . The second Adam (Christ) matured to adulthood and overcame.

I understand the traditional teaching that God rested on the seventh day and this is true; but if you look at the content and context of the sixth and seventh day in God's Word and reject the traditional teaching of man God did far more then fall asleep on the seventh day. God never rest like people rest.


Gen 1:26 And God said; Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Let me tell you being created in God’s image and likeness is not a small thing, There was no fallen sinful nature, in Adam, there was no death or the carnal mind. Adam was a son of God and for this reason I believe Adam was elohim or “us “ as we see written in Genesis

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . .

" Gen. 1:26. This was God’s covenant with man. This was His purpose for making man — to have a visible expression of Himself!"

God caused all of humanity to fall this is a scriptural fact.

And they (the) Elohiym said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...


Male and Female


And Adam is NOT the other part of the Elohiym.


Where would that leave the Goddess Ashtoreth? The Bible tells us she is part of the Elohiym. (1 Ki 11:5)


Where are you coming up with this stuff?


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[Benoni]

And they (the) Elohiym said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...


Male and Female


And Adam is NOT the other part of the Elohiym.


Where would that leave the Goddess Ashtoreth? The Bible tells us she is part of the Elohiym. (1 Ki 11:5)


Where are you coming up with this stuff?


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So Adam was not a son of God?????
Adam was not created in God's image and likeness?
Who is Adam to you?

 

[Benoni]

Why did Adam turn to destruction and err? It was God not little Adam who causes Adam turn to destruction and err

 

[Ingledsva]

So Adam was not a son of God?????
Adam was not created in God's image and likeness?
Who is Adam to you?

Created in the image of Elohiym, - does not mean they are Elohiym.


Nor is there any reason to believe later characters created by the Elohiym, - were somehow part of the original Elohiym.


Adam to me - is a Hebrew creation story character.


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[Benoni]

Created in the image of Elohiym, - does not mean they are Elohiym.


Nor is there any reason to believe later characters created by the Elohiym, - were somehow part of the original Elohiym.


Adam to me - is a Hebrew creation story character.


*

So Adam was not a son of God?

Who caused the fall?

God or little Adam?

 

[Ingledsva]

Created in the image of Elohiym, - does not mean they are Elohiym.


Nor is there any reason to believe later characters created by the Elohiym, - were somehow part of the original Elohiym.


Adam to me - is a Hebrew creation story character.

1. So Adam was not a son of God?

2. Who caused the fall?

God or little Adam?

1. Genesis does not say he is a son of God.


2. Supposedly the Serpent, followed by Chavvah, followed by Adam.


Of course we could take the mystical bent and say this had to be in the plan for free will. And by the way, taking this slant on things, Jesus is not the second Adam, he is the second Serpent of Knowledge.


*

 

[Benoni]

Sorry having some problems with my computer with quote brackets

1. Genesis does not say he is a son of God.

1. So you do not have enough vision to answer this simple question? Here are some Bible facts:


If we are not children (sons) of God; then what are we? (Who are the morning stars; note plural. Jesus was called the Bright and morning star.

Job 38:6-8 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I understand this does not fit a lot of old wine skins; but there is something here.

Son’s of God mentioned eleven times in the Bible

We already covered Ps. 82

Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

Sons of Elohim; son’s of God; same thing in Job 1:6.

Job1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God (Sons of Elohim) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.



Son: Heb. OT:1121

ben (bane); from OT:1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., [like OT:1, OT:251, etc.]):

God: OT:430 elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:



2. Supposedly the Serpent, followed by Chavvah, followed by Adam.


I rather Look at God’s Word then someone religious opinion.
Ps.90 and Romans 8:20 tell us it was God who caused the fall.
Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

2a. Of course we could take the mystical bent and say this had to be in the plan for
What are wrong with spiritual mysteries, the word mystery which means sacred secret is used at least 20 times in the NT.
2b. free will.

2b. Man does not have a freewill. No where is there any mention of this word in the Bible when it comes to salvation. God draws sinners/ drags them Nothing free in being dragged.
And by the way, taking this slant on things, Jesus is not the second Adam, he is the second Serpent of Knowledge.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean?

 

[Ingledsva]

1.Genesis does not say he is a son of God.

1.So you do not have enough vision to answer this simple question? Here are some Bible facts:


If we are not children (sons) of God; then what are we? (Who are the morning stars; note plural. Jesus was called the Bright and morning star.

Job 38:6-8 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I understand this does not fit a lot of old wine skins; but there is something here.

Son’s of God mentioned eleven times in the Bible

We already covered Ps. 82

Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

Sons of Elohim; son’s of God; same thing in Job 1:6.

Job1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God (Sons of Elohim) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.



Son: Heb. OT:1121

ben (bane); from OT:1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., [like OT:1, OT:251, etc.]):

God: OT:430 elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:

You can add as many verses as you want. It does not say he is a son of God.

All of the verses about sons of God are about specific people.

It says we can BECOME sons of God, - which would have to mean we are not automatically sons of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

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[Benoni]

You can add as many verses as you want. It does not say he is a son of God.

All of the verses about sons of God are about specific people.

It says we can BECOME sons of God, - which would have to mean we are not automatically sons of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

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No I do not believe we will be automatic sons of God.. But we were all born of Adam and means we were all created in God's image and likeness. Not all can receive him now for they were never called. It his timing not yours.



1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2
http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=222For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


RE



Peter's statement speaks clearly of the times of the restitution of all things. Restitution, according to the best English usage, means the act of restoring something that has been taken away or lost; the act of making good or rendering an equivalent as for loss or injury. (Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary) This is in exact harmony with the Greek work temuriak which means restoration

Notice the prefix “re” which precedes many words in the Bible like “restoration”, redeem, redemption, renew, reconcile,

To Restoration: (Acts 3:17-21) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may he blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto You: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

"And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it-- the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him." [Ephesians 1:10, Weymouth]. The wonder and glory of this passage of scripture is such that one can only bow in worship, to praise the Lord for His mercy and love. Such a plan, such a merciful purpose, to gather together in One, to reconcile all things into Himself-- a redemption that is full and complete in every part, and which covers the whole of the universe.
"And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself ; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometimes alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreproveable in His sight." [Col.1 :20-22].

 

[Ingledsva]

2.Supposedly the Serpent, followed by Chavvah, followed by Adam.


2. I rather Look at God’s Word then someone religious opinion.
Ps.90 and Romans 8:20 tell us it was God who caused the fall.
Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Psalm 90:3 actually says –


Psalm 90:3 You turn mortals to dust, and say, return, O sons of mankind.

Psalm 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.


This is how Lamsa translates Rom 8:20 -

Rom 8:20 For man was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who gave him free will in the hope he would choose rightly.

In other words free will to choose what one wants.



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[Ingledsva]

You can add as many verses as you want. It does not say he is a son of God.

All of the verses about sons of God are about specific people.

It says we can BECOME sons of God, - which would have to mean we are not automatically sons of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

No I do not believe we will be automatic sons of God.. But we were all born of Adam and means we were all created in God's image and likeness. Not all can receive him now for they were never called. It his timing not yours.

1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


RE



Peter's statement speaks clearly of the times of the restitution of all things. Restitution, according to the best English usage, means the act of restoring something that has been taken away or lost; the act of making good or rendering an equivalent as for loss or injury. (Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary) This is in exact harmony with the Greek work temuriak which means restoration

Notice the prefix “re” which precedes many words in the Bible like “restoration”, redeem, redemption, renew, reconcile,

To Restoration: (Acts 3:17-21) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may he blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto You: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

"And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it-- the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him." [Ephesians 1:10, Weymouth]. The wonder and glory of this passage of scripture is such that one can only bow in worship, to praise the Lord for His mercy and love. Such a plan, such a merciful purpose, to gather together in One, to reconcile all things into Himself-- a redemption that is full and complete in every part, and which covers the whole of the universe.
"And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself ; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometimes alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreproveable in His sight." [Col.1 :20-22].

You are purposely leaving out the - to those that believe = not everybody!

And as I said - not automatically, - CAN BECOME!

Are you forgetting the ones whom use their FREE WILL to not believe, and not BECOME sons of God? You know, all the hell stuff?



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[Pegg]

I only believe in VERY few traditional teaching of man’s religious system. Carnal/religious man places the truth in their religious box and refuses to see anything else. Truth cannot be controlled by JW or another religion for truth is progressive revelation and not worn out wine skins of human traditions .That is why the Jews during Jesus day were so blind. Religion is great for new Christians for Babylon is a golden cup in the handoff the Lord. I want you to get this very clear because we approach truth totally different,



Genesis is the foundation for the whole Bible. But let’s look at 1 Corinthians 15:45 first, And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Yes God formed man into a living soul but that is only half of the story; the first half is written in Genesis before the fall which tells us who Adam was before the fall.

Both Adam’s were made from God, in His image and Likeness; the first Adam had to fall or there was no need for a second Adam; that is why God created him innocent; God set Adam up to fall . The second Adam (Christ) matured to adulthood and overcame.

I understand the traditional teaching that God rested on the seventh day and this is true; but if you look at the content and context of the sixth and seventh day in God's Word and reject the traditional teaching of man God did far more then fall asleep on the seventh day. God never rest like people rest.


Gen 1:26 And God said; Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Let me tell you being created in God’s image and likeness is not a small thing, There was no fallen sinful nature, in Adam, there was no death or the carnal mind. Adam was a son of God and for this reason I believe Adam was elohim or “us “ as we see written in Genesis

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . .

" Gen. 1:26. This was God’s covenant with man. This was His purpose for making man — to have a visible expression of Himself!"

God caused all of humanity to fall this is a scriptural fact.

Elohim is a hebrew word meaning 'strong' or 'mighty'

It is not a name for the Almighty, it is merely a word denoting strength.


Man is not the Almighty.... man is a creature who was endowed with the qualities that come from God. Qualities such as justice, love and wisdom for example. 'in his image' doesnt mean we were created 'from' his substance or we are reflections of him....we are not The Almighty.

 

[Ingledsva]

2a. Of course we could take the mystical bent and say this had to be in the plan for free will.

What are wrong with spiritual mysteries, the word mystery which means sacred secret is used at least 20 times in the NT.

2b. free will.

2b. Man does not have a freewill. No where is there any mention of this word in the Bible when it comes to salvation. God draws sinners/ drags them Nothing free in being dragged.

2c. And by the way, taking this slant on things, Jesus is not the second Adam, he is the second Serpent of Knowledge.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean?

2A & 2B Lets take this to its logical Bible conclusion then? Without free will there would be no humans.

There would only be two obedient robots called Adam and Chavvah - whom wouldn't think of eating from that tree, period.


2c. In many ancient religions the Serpent represents a giver of Knowledge. Adam and Chavvah were (like a lot of the Tanakh stories) taken from ancient Mesopotamian, or surrounding, stories. There are surviving Mesopotamian carvings of a naked man and women in front of a tree with a serpent.


Jesus is associated with the Serpent. The lifting up of the Serpent in the desert, etc. Num 21:8 and -

John 3:14 And even as Moses lifted up the Serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.


We have discussed here, the interesting info that the word translated "carpenter" actually associates back to Sorcerer and Serpent. Tekton is related to the Aramaic Naggara. Naga (nagga) are Serpent Sorcerers.

Nagga becomes Nachash in the Hebrew meaning Sorcerer and serpent and Serpent hiss/incantations.

Jesus is called an Egyptian Sorcerer by the Hebrew. We know from Tanakh that the Egyptian Sorcerers were Serpent Sorcerers.

Early Christians apparently portrayed Jesus with Serpent legs. That image is associated back to Indian Serpent Sorcerers and Padmapani, and ancient historians tell us the Hebrew came from India, and then settled in Egypt, before moving to their lands.

"Abrasax, a figure with Serpents for legs; represented the Christos in the early church according to Tertullian,"

"Epiphanius tells us that certain "heretics" even in his day had a god with serpent legs, "and they called it Abrasax."

Many believe Jesus was associated with the more mystical groups of his day.

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[Shak34]

we are all encouraged to research all the scriptural principles that have led to any conclusions reached. We are free to seek clarification on any topic

Really, if that is true why would one of your governing body members Anthony Morris III just gave a talk on how bad independent thinking is? He said "Independent thinking is dangerous. Jehovah's people are the most thinkingest people on the planet. What you have to be careful of is don't let it become independent thinking." Wouldn't researching be independent thinking? :sarcastic

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Really, if that is true why would one of your governing body members Anthony Morris III just gave a talk on how bad independent thinking is? He said "Independent thinking is dangerous. Jehovah's people are the most thinkingest people on the planet. What you have to be careful of is don't let it become independent thinking." Wouldn't researching be independent thinking? :sarcastic

Only if that research leads you to disagree with the faithful and discreet slave, even though sometimes they are wrong and change their teachings.

 

[savagewind]

Really, if that is true why would one of your governing body members Anthony Morris III just gave a talk on how bad independent thinking is? He said "Independent thinking is dangerous. Jehovah's people are the most thinkingest people on the planet. What you have to be careful of is don't let it become independent thinking." Wouldn't researching be independent thinking? :sarcastic

Did he really say "thinkingest"? I googled it. Try it! Haha

 

[Shak34]

I watched a YouTube thing on getting to know Anthony Morris and half of the stuff he talked about sounded like gibberish. I would be very concerned to have him part of the GB. I wonder of any of the witnesses are concerned.

 

[savagewind]

I watched a YouTube thing on getting to know Anthony Morris and half of the stuff he talked about sounded like gibberish. I would be very concerned to have him part of the GB. I wonder of any of the witnesses are concerned.

Jehovah's Witnesses loyal to the organization have accused me of ill will toward them and the governing body but it is the way they do business that caused me to leave. I cannot believe they are governed by The Holy Spirit. I do not believe The Holy Spirit is leading them to do and say they things they do. I'm sorry. It might be different for me if they did not claim "the truth" and if they did not confess to be led by The Holy Spirit. I'll never know though. Will I?

 

[JayJayDee]

Really, if that is true why would one of your governing body members Anthony Morris III just gave a talk on how bad independent thinking is? He said "Independent thinking is dangerous. Jehovah's people are the most thinkingest people on the planet. What you have to be careful of is don't let it become independent thinking." Wouldn't researching be independent thinking? :sarcastic

I am getting rather tired of the fringe dwellers constantly attacking our governing body members as if they are somehow revered by us as infallible or something. They are as imperfect as the rest of us and they readily admit it. It doesn't stop God from using them to direct his people....it never has. There are no perfect humans on earth....remember?

The "independent thinking" that our brothers warn us about is the thinking that maybe we can feed ourselves spiritually from other sources. (Satan seduced Eve with that line of thinking) What has been the case all through scripture? From the time God first formed his people into a nation, he has had imperfect men lead them and guide them in the way of the truth. They made mistakes, sometimes monumental ones, but they were repentant when God corrected them and so he continued to use them as his shepherds.

Imperfect men have always been used by God as a channel for dispensing his instructions to the rest of his "sheep". Shepherds were always there to protect the sheep spiritually, from harmful thoughts and actions and especially from the poisonous thinking of apostates. (the devil was the first apostate)

Our faithful brothers are servants of God, just like the rest of us. As a "faithful slave" appointed by Jesus, we do well to heed their advice. There is no other source of "food" mentioned nor is there any 'self serve' facility outside of in God's household.

The only difference is, if the 'slave' are appointed by God to "shepherd" the sheep "as those who will render an account"....
to whom do they render that account?....us?

We are told to "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

If you don't want to take the direction that is offered from those who are appointed in the congregation, (GB or not,) then you have two choices. You can leave and take your fault finding and complaining attitude with you, or you can stay and stop fault finding altogether as one who recognizes themselves as being as sinful as the next person. If God will judge us with the same judgment we give others, then we do not do ourselves any favors by trying to challenge God's arrangement. If it needs to change, He will do it.

The Israelites were complainers too and most of them never made it to the promised land because of it. Those who opposed the appointment of Moses lived only to regret their decision. Think about that. God will not alter things to suit you. You have to alter your own attitude to suit him.
Who is standing there with a big stick making you believe anything?

In the days of Joshua, and also of the prophet Elijah, the Israelites were at a crossroads. A choice had to be made. Elijah said: “How long will you be limping upon two different opinions? If Jehovah is the true God, go following him; but if Baal is, go following him.” (1 Kings 18:21) Today, too, mankind is at a crossroads. This is no time to be limping upon two different opinions. What is the right choice?

Joshua said: “As for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.” (Joshua 24:15) I, and millions of my brothers and sisters second that motion!

You have to make your own choice though....and soon. God's purpose will not wait for you. It will go ahead, with you or without you.