Jehovah

[savagewind]

use the bible as the basis of our views.

If an expression is presented to us, we test it by looking at what the scriptures state in relation to that subject.

The bible is the bases for Gods truth. My ideas are irrelevant.

Really? Do you use electricity? A car? Are you not glad that not everyone's ideas are irrelevant?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

what happened when Eve used her own, or what she though was her own, rational mind?

We ended up in the wilderness.

'Independent thought' means to think and reason on things differently to the way God thinks and reasons. To go against his standards of right and wrong, to reject his moral standards for those that you create in your own 'rational' mind.

Why can't people base their ideal, standards and morals on Gods word rather then on their own desires? Whats the 'waste' in doing that???

I don't take the Genesis story literally and I'm not really much of a Christian, to be honest.

If you believe that God created us, then you would agree that he gave us a mind that's built for thinking and exploration. It doesn't make sense for him to give us such a mind and then make it so that we have to throw critical thinking out of the window in order to be one of his followers. You make no sense at all, Pegg. Maybe God wants us to learn and explore. He didn't make us to be robots, right?

The Bible is not "God's word". It's a book written by humans. God has never written any book. Are there good things in it? Sure. Does that mean we should elevate it to the level of an idol? No. There's no way you can know that the people who wrote the Bible were actually in contact with God or not. You're just believing what you've been told to believe.

 

[Pegg]

But what if what us taught is a misrepresentation of the bible. Would you bring it up at a meeting, go an elder or just keep it to yourself?

if there is something incorrect, it will be corrected.

But i think if you examine the WT teachings regarding the fundamentals and basics of the Christian faith, you will find that the teachings are reliable and with a sound basis in scripture.

If we had teachings which had no basis in scripture, then i'd think something was wrong.

 

[Pegg]

I don't take the Genesis story literally and I'm not really much of a Christian, to be honest.

If you believe that God created us, then you would agree that he gave us a mind that's built for thinking and exploration. It doesn't make sense for him to give us such a mind and then make it so that we have to throw critical thinking out of the window in order to be one of his followers. You make no sense at all, Pegg. Maybe God wants us to learn and explore. He didn't make us to be robots, right?

The Bible is not "God's word". It's a book written by humans. God has never written any book. Are there good things in it? Sure. Does that mean we should elevate it to the level of an idol? No.

while i agree with you that we are supposed to use our minds and reason, I dont think it means God expects us to reject his truth or his morals or standards.

We should use our powers of reason to learn the will of God. Mankind are already led astray through the proliferation of independent thought. Thousands of different religions, different ideologies, different standards and morals

If you use your powers of reason, you should be able to determine if all this independent though has brought about a better peaceful happy world. And if it hasnt, then you should dig a little deeper and ask 'why' things dont get better when mankind have 'independent thought'.

 

[savagewind]

The Bible can be likened to language with it's letters which form words and it's grammer which forms sentences and so forth. I believe The Bible is the language with which The Spirit communicates. It isn't the spirit; just like a bunch of words isn't a story.

Are there other ways? I don't know. Probably.

I believe that to know what The Spirit is telling I need to know the words of The Bible. Are some of the words wrong? Probably. It reminds me of how someone I know is so funny! She forgives the "imperfect men" when they make a mistake but does not forgive The God if the words come down wrong.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

while i agree with you that we are supposed to use our minds and reason, I dont think it means God expects us to reject his truth or his morals or standards.

We should use our powers of reason to learn the will of God. Mankind are already led astray through the proliferation of independent thought. Thousands of different religions, different ideologies, different standards and morals

If you use your powers of reason, you should be able to determine if all this independent though has brought about a better peaceful happy world. And if it hasnt, then you should dig a little deeper and ask 'why' things dont get better when mankind have 'independent thought'.

Yes, there are thousands of belief systems, ideologies, worldviews, religions, etc. How can you be so sure that you're right? Especially if you think your viewpoint is the only correct one to the exclusion of all the others. That's rather arrogant. You really have no more objective reason to be sure of it than others do.

 

[Sees]

while i agree with you that we are supposed to use our minds and reason, I dont think it means God expects us to reject his truth or his morals or standards.

We should use our powers of reason to learn the will of God. Mankind are already led astray through the proliferation of independent thought. Thousands of different religions, different ideologies, different standards and morals

If you use your powers of reason, you should be able to determine if all this independent though has brought about a better peaceful happy world. And if it hasnt, then you should dig a little deeper and ask 'why' things dont get better when mankind have 'independent thought'.

Oppression, intolerance, greed, cruelty - thoughts and actions representing these keep things from being their best....not independent thought.

 

[savagewind]

What is independant thought? Who is it independant of? God????

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What is independant thought?

Thinking for yourself and not accepting what people tell you on the face of it. Like, just because a person is in a position of "authority" doesn't mean you automatically accept what they have to say. Critically examining information and viewpoints before you make up your mind about it.

 

[Pegg]

Yes, there are thousands of belief systems, ideologies, worldviews, religions, etc. How can you be so sure that you're right? Especially if you think your viewpoint is the only correct one to the exclusion of all the others. That's rather arrogant. You really have no more objective reason to be sure of it than others do.

I understand why you may feel that way. If you dont view the bible as the only source of Gods truth, then i guess any source could be from God.

However, I dont believe that every source of teaching comes from God. I hold to the hebrew scriptures...therein we learn that the Creator befriended a man named Abraham and made a nation out of that mans children. That nation was given the laws of God, he guided them and their religious beliefs and practices were laid down in the writings of the hebrew scriptures.

Those scriptures reflect the mind of the God Jehovah who is the maker of heaven and earth. I believe our maker has the viewpoint of truth because he designed the universal and moral laws... if we dont live within those laws, we suffer consequences. To me this shows that his laws and views are the ones we should strive to live by because we are products of his design.

 

[Pegg]

Oppression, intolerance, greed, cruelty - thoughts and actions representing these keep things from being their best....not independent thought.

i would say that independent thought is what leads to oppression, intolerance, greed & cruelty... and a bunch of other negative outcomes.

If people lived by Gods law of 'love', there would be no room for oppression, intolerance, greed or cruelty.

 

[savagewind]

Thinking for yourself and not accepting what people tell you on the face of it. Like, just because a person is in a position of "authority" doesn't mean you automatically accept what they have to say. Critically examining information and viewpoints before you make up your mind about it.

OK. But we are God believers. JWs believe God is the Person in a Position of Authority. But does God expect His people to automatically accept what God has to say? I don't think so. I don't think they think so either. They examine the scriptures daily to see that the things they believe are really coming from God. And that may have been the way it was at one time. I don't think that is the way it now. They are directed to the same proof the f&ds found and yes, they automatically accept it. They have to.

 

[Pegg]

Thinking for yourself and not accepting what people tell you on the face of it. Like, just because a person is in a position of "authority" doesn't mean you automatically accept what they have to say. Critically examining information and viewpoints before you make up your mind about it.

May i ask, If God came to you and face to face told you something that he wanted you to do, would you be willing to accept what he told you?

 

[savagewind]

i would say that independent thought is what leads to oppression, intolerance, greed & cruelty... and a bunch of other negative outcomes.

If people lived by Gods law of 'love', there would be no room for oppression, intolerance, greed or cruelty.

Oh please. Men are intolerant, oppressive cruel and bad but JW believe God will soon be intolerant, oppressive, cruel and bad too when God's son is commanded to finally get rid of us.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

May i ask, If God came to you and face to face told you something that he wanted you to do, would you be willing to accept what he told you?

Depends.

 

[Pegg]

Depends.

I guess thats the difference with some people. Some people would be willing to do what God asked and accept the decisions he makes. Others reject his decisions and decide to go their own way or seek their own understanding.

But no matter which side you are on, both groups of people are using their own powers of reason to make the decision they do. Choosing to obey God does not mean that person is not using their own mind.

 

[Sees]

i would say that independent thought is what leads to oppression, intolerance, greed & cruelty... and a bunch of other negative outcomes.

If people lived by Gods law of 'love', there would be no room for oppression, intolerance, greed or cruelty.

If people lived by about any decent philosophical or religious tradition

The Divine loves indepence and freedom of expression. That's why there are billions of trees, flowers, people, etc. of all sizes, shapes, colors... It should be obvious. Who would want a bunch of robots with fake piety? All these individual lives are about beautiful plurality and multiplicity. Imagine if every act at a talent show was aalways the same thing.

What better way to have a thankful and genuine life than free and independent movement, thought, etc. This stuff ain't accidental or blasphemous.

 

[savagewind]

I guess thats the difference with some people. Some people would be willing to do what God asked and accept the decisions he makes. Others reject his decisions and decide to go their own way or seek their own understanding.

But no matter which side you are on, both groups of people are using their own powers of reason to make the decision they do. Choosing to obey God does not mean that person is not using their own mind.

Others reject his decisions????? What decisions? The only decisions I know of that the God has declared is 1. life 2. love and 3. God's son.

How do you know if ALL the other decisions you attribute to God are actually Satan's decisions? How do you know if Eve did not know if it was God who had decided for her?

So if God came face to face with me and demanded I eat at your table how would I know if it was Jehovah telling me and not Jehovah's adversary?

 

[savagewind]

How do the Jehovah's Witnesses know Eve knew the messsage she heard was coming from God's adversary and she chose to disobey God, and not coming from her creator and she decided to obey it?

 

[kjw47]

How do the Jehovah's Witnesses know Eve knew the messsage she heard was coming from God's adversary and she chose to disobey God, and not coming from her creator and she decided to obey it?

God told them--- if you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and bad you will positively die

Satan said-- you will positively not die.


contradiction is how=