Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Now, if we could just leave it at that, I might be able to agree with you.
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Jesus is God the Father?
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
Glad we could come to that
But I am quite sure you would mean something else by that statement than I, the primary difference being, I think, that the statement "inner life of God" assumes homoousia- that there can be only one divine being, and the Trinity is His inner life.
mobious
gold member
Glad we could come to that
with how big of an arguement religion is there will never be a compermise until one religion destroys all the others.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Maybe I mean something different than you do, maybe not. There are scriptures in the Book of Mormon that very clearly state that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one God." So it all gets down to what we mean by "one God." To me, the "inner life of God," as you put it, refers to the attributes that make God who He is. I would use the word "essence" if it were not so often used as a synonym for "substance." I see the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as being so absolutely united in will, purpose, mind and heart that their "inner life" could be considered as "one." Each of them is in perfect harmony with the others, to an extent we cannot even imagine. They do not act, think, or feel independently of each other but as a single, absolutely perfect being. How similar or dissimilar is that to Catholic belief?Glad we could come to that
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
In many ways, very similar. The most significant difference I can think of is that we believe this eternally of God- his life is and always contained this kind of dynamic plurality, always a relation between Father, Son and Spirit. I understand the LDS believe there was a time when the Son was not- meaning, in our understanding, that the Son is not fully divine (lacks the divine attribute of being from eternity, is a created thing) and that the intra-personal relationship described could not really said to be constitute God's inner life, because, according to LDS belief, such a relationship would have been of God's own creation (in the creation of the Son). Whereas, in the Trinitarian belief, it is the nature of the Father to beget, the nature of the Son to be begotten, the nature of the Spirit to proceed.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Actually, in all my years as a Latter-day Saint, I have never heard it taught that the Father "created" the Son. We Latter-day Saints absolutely affirm that Jesus Christ was fully divine and that He was with the Father in the beginning. I think the issue centers more around the idea of what is meant by "eternity." If God created the heavens and the earth "in the beginning," there was a time when the earth did not exist. That would have been before "the beginning," before the clock started ticking, so to speak. If we see "eternity" as referring to the beginning of the creation as described in Genesis, then certainly Jesus Christ existed as a fully divine being at that time because it was He who, under His Father's direction, created the heavens and the earth. If "eternity" extends back to a time prior to "the beginning," then we might disagree with you and say that there was a time when God the Father begat the spirit of His Son, Jesus Christ, but that the spiritual essence, the light of truth from which Christ's spirit was begotten was, in fact, co-eternal with God.
Could you try to explain to me (and please feel free to dumb it down; I won't be offended) what you mean when you say the nature of the Father is to beget and the nature of the Son is to be begotten. It seems to me that the "begetor" would have to exist in some respect when the "begetee" did not. And, since we never use the term "proceed" when speaking of the Holy Ghost, could you explain exactly what is meant by that and how to be begotten differs from proceeding.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
To explain these technical terms in fuller detail- this is my goal at the moment for both myself and you Katzpur. It may take some time.
For the time being, however, I understand the above in such a sense:
The Father is the "ground" the Trinitarian life and therefore prior, not in time, but in metaphysic. The Son is eternally "of" the Father, receives what he is from Him. The Son is the object of the Father's love, and therefore, is ever in reception of the Father's life. The Son, living always "for" the Father in response to His life "from" Him, mutually returns all the richness that He recieves from Him, it having become His own.
The Holy Spirit is the mutual life between Father and Son- and their mutual love, as each rises upwards in the ecstasy of their divine exchange [which is, was and always will be].
Thus the Son is ever- begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from both- subsisting between Father and Son as their mutual life, though with a priority in the Father.
I realize this is simply a description, and not an account of how all this could be so, (something which, at the moment, I am trying to work out in my own theology).
Also, I can not guarantee that this is a perfect or flawless summary- other Trinitarians, feel free to correct my heresies.
For the time being, however, I understand the above in such a sense:
The Father is the "ground" the Trinitarian life and therefore prior, not in time, but in metaphysic. The Son is eternally "of" the Father, receives what he is from Him. The Son is the object of the Father's love, and therefore, is ever in reception of the Father's life. The Son, living always "for" the Father in response to His life "from" Him, mutually returns all the richness that He recieves from Him, it having become His own.
The Holy Spirit is the mutual life between Father and Son- and their mutual love, as each rises upwards in the ecstasy of their divine exchange [which is, was and always will be].
Thus the Son is ever- begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from both- subsisting between Father and Son as their mutual life, though with a priority in the Father.
I realize this is simply a description, and not an account of how all this could be so, (something which, at the moment, I am trying to work out in my own theology).
Also, I can not guarantee that this is a perfect or flawless summary- other Trinitarians, feel free to correct my heresies.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
Your ideas are not heresies, but they are trying to explain what is beyond human capabilities, we should learn of God by learning how we were made. i wrote this article once, it my help to explain some of the questions raised.
EFFECTIVE WORSHIP
We all at some time, either alone, or within an assembly have taken part in worship, but in response to a Samaritan woman, Jesus revealed the requirements for an effective worship. We read in John 4 – 20 – 26: “Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus said to her. “Woman believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and truth; for such people the father seeks to be his worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that the Messiah is coming, (he who is called Christ
when that one comes he will declare all things to us.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?
Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.
In the book of Genesis 1 – 26 and 27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: “Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”
So according to the above scripture we have the image of God in ourselves, but unfortunately man’s imaginative and artistic skill fashioned God to resemble himself, male and female, and some of us even elevated animals as the form to worship. Others worship some object like the sun, the moon, the earth, or nature itself. Needless to say that they all are in error, because it is not the object, or creature, or our superficial appearance or gender that bear the image of God, but it is the essence (spirit) of God in us that bear the image of God.
It isn’t difficult to identify the spirit in us that bear the image of God; because he has not been hidden in some dark place, but he is in the most forefront of our lives, if anything it is his ever-exposure that makes him invisible as it were.
For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.
So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 – 7.)
We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him, because man was enticed by Satan to covet the likeness of the wisdom of God, by knowing good and evil. Genesis 3 – 5 – 6, records the advent: “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be open, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (gratification of the body) and that it was a delight to the eyes, (gratification of the senses) and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, (gratification of the ego) she took from its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.” And Genesis 3 – 22, confirms what took place. “Then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”
Moving a step further towards the understanding of ourselves we must realise that the source of coordinate actions of the body and precise utterances, reside in the spirit, there is no other plausible location. Have you ever searched your inner self to find the source of your words? For if you could find it you would be staring in the face of god, with a small “g” because it would be your own face you would be looking at. Our spirit has the ability to be immensely active, continually creating thought without disturbing the body, in our dreams for example, or in our private thought, he is the tenant of the body, and his presence and activity keeps our body alive, “for the body without the spirit is dead.” Our spirit and soul is so intertwined that to separate them is only possible to God.
We cannot see the soul but we can see and hear the affect of the soul, it can be either good or bad, because it knows both. Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.
A loving relationship either in the flesh or in the spirit is always based on communication; for how can anyone claim to have a relationship without talking to each other, or how can anyone fellowship with those that entertain adversary thought and or, behaviour, that cause offence to one’s own character. So the exhortation recorded in the scriptures “You shall be holy, for I am holy” is an invitation to fellowship with him.
Continue in next post
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
To Jordan St Francis
from post 89
Therefore the soul has to become holy to meet and fellowship with a holy God. Ephesians 4 – 23, is very explicit with what we have to do, for we read: “And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” In other words, the soul must cleanse itself from the word of inequity, which is the integral and living evil side of our soul, which uninvited floods our mind; with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.
However with the guidance of the Holy Spirit abiding in us, we are now able to suppress and put to death our unclean and undisciplined thoughts. And replace them with the discipline of love: With its manifestation of joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Wisdom also demands that we understand the complex identity of our soul, which is formed by the spirit of our conscience, and the spirit of our mind, sharing control over our will and body, but the most important part of the soul is our conscience. For it is an independent judge of all that we do or say, it is also a passive but persuasive controller of our unfolding lives. (Man or woman without a conscience unquestionably would tend to be an evil person, and unfortunately there are many in the world whom have no conscience.)
On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality, reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin. The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 – 15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will. But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin. As 1st Peter 4 – 2, also says, “So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.”
To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will. But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience, and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life, and to enter the consciousness of God’s truth. Hebrews 10 – 1 to 18 is explicit for it says among other things: “For having once been cleansed we would have no longer consciousness of sins.”
Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 – 18 to 20, is very explicit in describing the importance of our body for it says. “Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”
At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells. But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites, as Romans 12 – 1 – 2 says, “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable (useful) to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” The importance of keeping our body holy is obvious, for God will not openly use a defiled vessel.
Without a doubt, if we have exercised the new freedom and power of our sanctified conscience, and grasped the importance of our body as the vessel of God, and made his mind our own, we have inadvertently already experienced the joy ofworshipping in spirit and truth. (Or consciousness of holiness)
As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will, brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit. Our gratitude and thanksgiving belongs to him, who is our priest, and advocate, who also patiently lead us back to our God and father. Having therefore by his grace reached sanctification, of our spirit, (conscience) of our soul, (mind) and of our body, (vessel) we can now have the living hope of fellowship and enter beyond the veil of holiness in the presence of our God and father.
The attitude of worship will express, respect, obedience, and service, all wrapped in an uncovetous loving relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we may know his will, regarding the work of service that we must zealously render on his behalf to our fellow men. Because, if we have been sanctified completely, in other words “if we are dead to sin and sin is death to us” the love that God holds for the human race has become our own, and we have become partners with his son Jesus Christ to spread among men the gospel of salvation.
Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.
In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life
It is fitting for the wisdom of God to sum it all up with this one phrase.
“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Glory to God
from post 89
Therefore the soul has to become holy to meet and fellowship with a holy God. Ephesians 4 – 23, is very explicit with what we have to do, for we read: “And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” In other words, the soul must cleanse itself from the word of inequity, which is the integral and living evil side of our soul, which uninvited floods our mind; with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.
However with the guidance of the Holy Spirit abiding in us, we are now able to suppress and put to death our unclean and undisciplined thoughts. And replace them with the discipline of love: With its manifestation of joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Wisdom also demands that we understand the complex identity of our soul, which is formed by the spirit of our conscience, and the spirit of our mind, sharing control over our will and body, but the most important part of the soul is our conscience. For it is an independent judge of all that we do or say, it is also a passive but persuasive controller of our unfolding lives. (Man or woman without a conscience unquestionably would tend to be an evil person, and unfortunately there are many in the world whom have no conscience.)
On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality, reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin. The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 – 15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will. But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin. As 1st Peter 4 – 2, also says, “So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.”
To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will. But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience, and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life, and to enter the consciousness of God’s truth. Hebrews 10 – 1 to 18 is explicit for it says among other things: “For having once been cleansed we would have no longer consciousness of sins.”
Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 – 18 to 20, is very explicit in describing the importance of our body for it says. “Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”
At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells. But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites, as Romans 12 – 1 – 2 says, “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable (useful) to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” The importance of keeping our body holy is obvious, for God will not openly use a defiled vessel.
Without a doubt, if we have exercised the new freedom and power of our sanctified conscience, and grasped the importance of our body as the vessel of God, and made his mind our own, we have inadvertently already experienced the joy ofworshipping in spirit and truth. (Or consciousness of holiness)
As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will, brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit. Our gratitude and thanksgiving belongs to him, who is our priest, and advocate, who also patiently lead us back to our God and father. Having therefore by his grace reached sanctification, of our spirit, (conscience) of our soul, (mind) and of our body, (vessel) we can now have the living hope of fellowship and enter beyond the veil of holiness in the presence of our God and father.
The attitude of worship will express, respect, obedience, and service, all wrapped in an uncovetous loving relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we may know his will, regarding the work of service that we must zealously render on his behalf to our fellow men. Because, if we have been sanctified completely, in other words “if we are dead to sin and sin is death to us” the love that God holds for the human race has become our own, and we have become partners with his son Jesus Christ to spread among men the gospel of salvation.
Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.
In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life
It is fitting for the wisdom of God to sum it all up with this one phrase.
“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Glory to God
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AlsoAnima
Friend
Hm? Ice is H2O. Dihydrogen monoxide gas is H2O. Water is H2O. Ice is not dihydrogen monoxide gas.
CarlinKnew
Well-Known Member
Ice isn't just H2O; it's H2O in a solid state. Dihydrogen monixide gas isn't just H2O; it's H2O in a gaseous state. Water isn't just H2O; it's H2O in a liquid state.
H2O ice is dihydrogen monoxide gas in a solid state.
I don't think you'll be disproving the transitive law any time soon.
AlsoAnima
Friend
Completely missing the point. :clap
By the way, you're not supposed to be here, kindly leave.
CarlinKnew
Well-Known Member
I demonstrated that your 'point' is erroneous. :slap:
Sorry, AlsoEnema, but the OP clearly states that comments are welcome from everyone. Enjoy. :beach:
AlsoAnima
Friend
No, you demonstrated what you thought was my point was erroneous. You failed to see my point completely.
Name calling will get you nowhere. And the OP does not have the power to overwrite the rules of the forum. Kindly remove yourself.
CarlinKnew
Well-Known Member
As I demonstrated, you were wrong to say that "ice is H2O" and yet "ice isn't dihydrogen monoxide gas." It is, only in a different state.
That's the problem with your trinity diagram. If Jesus is God in a certain state, and God is The Father in a certain state, then Jesus is the Father in a certain state. That's the transitive law. That's logic.
AlsoAnima
Friend
Now you're personalizing things.
Jesus is God.
The Father is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
All three are manifestations of the same divine being. They are not eachother because they are not manifestations of the same aspects of that God.
But I'll stop there since anymore description would put you into my views rather than what the Trinity is.
goodhunter819
Member
Yes to my knowledge however there is also the term Son Of Man which is opposite to the term father is it not?
Jesus is never God the father.
Nada
#
1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,
They are acknowledging God the Almighty as the Father of Jesus.It is very clear Jesus is not the Father.They call God the Almighty the God of Jesus too.
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,
They are acknowledging God the Almighty as the Father of Jesus.It is very clear Jesus is not the Father.They call God the Almighty the God of Jesus too.