Jesus is not God

[YoursTrue]

The problem with sola scripture is that it implies inerrancy on the part of the men who selected the canon. Also, the ability to apply reason is independent of any written text.

Would you say your responses are innerant?

 

[YoursTrue]

I respect your religious faith; however, the Epistle to the Hebrews is of questionable authorship and contains interpretations that are contrary to the Torah. Therefore, it is not a reliable basis for proving the teachings of Jesus. Additionally, even the Gospels are not without their issues. For example, I am utilizing the Gospel of John to support certain dogmas in this forum; however, this text also faces significant textual criticism challenges, including issues with manuscript variants and potential theological embellishments.

What, may I ask, do you think of as reliable, unmistakable interpretations of what is compiled in the scriptures? It is almost like the theory of evolution. No one can prove anything other than what's there.

 

[YoursTrue]

I respect your religious faith; however, the Epistle to the Hebrews is of questionable authorship and contains interpretations that are contrary to the Torah. Therefore, it is not a reliable basis for proving the teachings of Jesus. Additionally, even the Gospels are not without their issues. For example, I am utilizing the Gospel of John to support certain dogmas in this forum; however, this text also faces significant textual criticism challenges, including issues with manuscript variants and potential theological embellishments.

There are various translations that may go against one another. Therefore -- each one must decide what is their fundamental belief, despite possibly contradictory translations. And then choose which interpreters they respect and go with. The example that comes to mind is when Jesus was arrested and healed the ear of the man who came to get him.

 

[Kenny]

Hello my friend Kenny good to hear from you, That is a great scripture to start with.. if you read John 1:1 in the Greek language it reads, in the beginning was the word and the Word was with the God in greek [ ho theos ], and the Word was God. Bibles that translate into English drop the [ the ] of the God, this is not correct, for the Greek language is what the Apostle John wrote In and reflects the most correct understanding.

This is why so many different English translations have words so differently at John 1:1

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

I will post in the next hour, the differences in John 1:1 in so many different English translations they agree and they totally do not agree with each other.

this scripture John 1:1 reflects that.. and the word was God. [ not the God ] Jesus is not called [ the God ] at John 1:1, he is referred to as God
[ theos ] in Greek. I looked through the Bible and I found Moses called God [ theos ], the word [ theos ] is used for Paul and Barnabas.

God spoke to Moses and told him I have made you a God to pharaoh Exodus 7:1, Does that make Moses is another God? if God says it, I would say that it is the truth. God says somewhere else in the Bible there's only one God! and besides me there is no one else. does that make God's words to Moses incorrect? I think not! God's words to Moses does not change the fact throughout the whole Bible there is only one Almighty God, Only One Most High, using Jesus words in a prayer to his father at John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. KJV

Why would Jesus pray these words for all of us to read and purposely leave out words of him being God Almighty, or saying he is the Most High or using his words at John 17:3 that they may know thee the only true God. [ or calling himself the only true God, which he never does. ].

The angel that spoke to Moses said to Moses I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, if an angel can say something like that, can't Jesus say all the things he said? and still be what the Bible teaches, John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

My purpose for saying these words is just to express there is another way to look at things, not all thinking is set in stone, before I believed just like you.

I know this has been studied for centuries. I believe this might be a Romans 14 issue.

The 50+ translations that I have are all saying the same thing even with different words. And, as I study it, I believe that only God can redeem man and Jesus is that redeemer. An angel doesn't have enough assets to absorb our liabilities and remains solvent. Angels that disobeyed aren't redeemable even with the one sin they committed.

Could you quote the scripture of the angel of the Lord?

 

[Trailblazer]

If people were aware that Jesus is an Elohim rejected by Jews and accepted by Christians, and that this forms part of His mission, and that the doctrine of the Trinity is a philosophical development pertinent only to the Catholic Church and not to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, everything would be resolved.

The doctrine of the Trinity is believed by Catholics and Protestants although it is not supported by the scriptures.
The Trinity doctrine is a man-made doctrine that was adopted at the First Council of Nicaea and that doctrine was imposed back onto scriptures.
I also believe that certain Bible translations were altered in an effort to support the belief in a Trinity. I consider this to be a travesty.

What did you mean when you said that Jesus is an Elohim rejected by Jews and accepted by Christians, and that this forms part of His mission?

 

[walt]

I know this has been studied for centuries. I believe this might be a Romans 14 issue.

The 50+ translations that I have are all saying the same thing even with different words. And, as I study it, I believe that only God can redeem man and Jesus is that redeemer. An angel doesn't have enough assets to absorb our liabilities and remains solvent. Angels that disobeyed aren't redeemable even with the one sin they committed.

Could you quote the scripture of the angel of the Lord?

I do not really understand your comment, are you asking where the angel says he is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, where the angel speaks in the first person as if he was God himself?

 

[walt]

I know this has been studied for centuries. I believe this might be a Romans 14 issue.

The 50+ translations that I have are all saying the same thing even with different words. And, as I study it, I believe that only God can redeem man and Jesus is that redeemer. An angel doesn't have enough assets to absorb our liabilities and remains solvent. Angels that disobeyed aren't redeemable even with the one sin they committed.

Could you quote the scripture of the angel of the Lord?

these are some comments that I made yesterday, these scriptures five times show an angel spoke and God's words came out too.

Jesus is not God

As I see it, the problem is that we try to understand "Jesus" and forget who Jesus was before he became Jesus. Who was Jesus? John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God. :14 and the Word became flesh... Can we start there? He was "God". Hello my friend...

www.religiousforums.com

but this also helps me to believe that way is, God spoke to Moses and told him you cannot see my face and live, then in another place Moses says I have spoken to God face to face.. but the Bible says many times no man has seen God at any time.

to accept all these scriptures as fact, something is not literal, I feel Moses really didn't talk to God face to face even though he thinks so, because the other scriptures would be incorrect if that was true. Jacob thought he wrestled with God, but I do not think he wrestled with God literally.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time;.. KJV
Exodus 33:20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

 

[Ebionite]

Would you say your responses are innerant?

In debate it's not my job to make the opposing argument.

 

[Kenny]

I do not really understand your comment, are you asking where the angel says he is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, where the angel speaks in the first person as if he was God himself?

correct

 

[Kenny]

these are some comments that I made yesterday, these scriptures five times show an angel spoke and God's words came out too.

Jesus is not God

As I see it, the problem is that we try to understand "Jesus" and forget who Jesus was before he became Jesus. Who was Jesus? John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God. :14 and the Word became flesh... Can we start there? He was "God". Hello my friend...

www.religiousforums.com

but this also helps me to believe that way is, God spoke to Moses and told him you cannot see my face and live, then in another place Moses says I have spoken to God face to face.. but the Bible says many times no man has seen God at any time.

to accept all these scriptures as fact, something is not literal, I feel Moses really didn't talk to God face to face even though he thinks so, because the other scriptures would be incorrect if that was true. Jacob thought he wrestled with God, but I do not think he wrestled with God literally.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time;.. KJV
Exodus 33:20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

I find it difficult to find an angel saying “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” - since it would be a lie. So I find that harmonizing all scriptures to be more efficient. The Word was the Lord of Hosts.

The confusion starts when we try to equate the manifestation of The Word vs when he came in flesh and try to compare His physical appearance from when He was The Word.

 

[walt]

I find it difficult to find an angel saying “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” - since it would be a lie. So I find that harmonizing all scriptures to be more efficient. The Word was the Lord of Hosts.

The confusion starts when we try to equate the manifestation of The Word in flesh and try to compare His physical appearance from when He was The Wo.

• first paragraph the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in the flame of the fire in the midst of the bush. 4 God called him from the midst of the bush. and said at verse 6 I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
• second paragraph says basically the same thing in the book of Acts.
• third paragraph says plainly the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai.
• fourth single sentence, it says the law was transmitted by angels.
• fifth paragraph, Yahweh's Angel spoke from heaven, saying to Abraham I solemnly promise you, by the glory of my own name,’ decrees YAHWEH: ‘because you have obeyed my voice and did not withhold from me your son—your beloved son — I will greatly bless you!
• fifth paragraph again, read it again if you would please, this angel says by the glory of my own name decrees Yahweh [ calling himself Yahweh ].

1 And Moses was a shepherd with the flock of Jethro, his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the west of the desert, and he came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. 2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. 3 And Moses said, "Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?" 4 And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, "Moses, Moses." And he said, "Here I am." 5 And he said, "You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground." 6 And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at God. --Exodus 3:1-6 LEB - Lexham English Bible.

30 "And when forty years had been completed, an angel appeared to him in the desert of Mount Sinai in the flame of a burning bush. 31 And when Moses saw it, he was astonished at the sight, and when he approached to look at it, the voice of the Lord came: 32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob!' So Moses began trembling and did not dare to look at it. 33 And the Lord said to him, 'Untie the sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. 34 ⌊I have certainly seen⌋ the mistreatment of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their groaning, and I have come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send you to Egypt.' --Acts 7:30-34 LEB - Lexham English Bible.

“This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people. 38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us. --Acts 7:37-38 NIV

you who received the law as transmitted by angels, but did not keep it.” --Acts 7:53 EHV

Genesis 22:15-17 The Passion Translation (TPT)
YAHWEH’s angel spoke a second time from heaven: “ ‘I solemnly promise you, by the glory of my own name,’ decrees YAHWEH, ‘because you have obeyed my voice and did not withhold from me your son—your beloved son — I will greatly bless you! I will make sure your seed becomes as numerous as the stars of heaven and as the sand of the seashore. Your offspring will take possession of the city gates of their enemies.

 

[Betho_br]

What did you mean when you said that Jesus is an Elohim rejected by Jews and accepted by Christians, and that this forms part of His mission?

Matthew 21:23-27 New International Version
The Authority of Jesus Questioned
23 Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you this authority?” 24 Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 25 John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?” They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘Of human origin’—we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.” 27 So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.” Then he said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.

Elohim is interchangeable with 'theos' (god/God) and also means 'magistrates' (Exodus 21:6; 1 Samuel 2:25).

 

[walt]

a) I am talking about Jesus' identity.
b) Yes, I do believe in the Trinity.
c) "...whenever I get, for whatever reason a better understanding of something, I change my thinking, beliefs and actions accordingly", so go ahead and change your thinking about who Jesus was/is.
d) I also only seek to extend kindness to you and Christian love, while we both examine the scriptural evidence especially the words of Jesus.

Hello Jim, for me I like to be able to find Specific words from Jesus, to form what I believe to be true, not something that was said to Jesus from another person, [ Jesus own words Only ]. In this one prayer Jesus is praying to his father, Jesus refers to himself as the son of the person he is praying to, Jesus refers to the father as his father, Jesus says: this means everlasting life they're coming to know you the only true God and the one whom you have sent.

My beliefs are exactly expressed in Jesus prayer to his father:
[ this is what I believe exactly, this is how I determine eternal life, like Jesus says it! ].

• Jesus refers to himself as the son of the person he is praying to.
• Jesus refers to the person he is praying to as his father.
• Jesus says: Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
• Jesus also uses these words: that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one.
• Jesus in his own words, never explains at any time that his sonship to God is figurative, symbolic or should [ not ] be taken exactly like it explained in the Bible over a 100 times. [ using the words son and father over 100 times, in reference to Jesus and his father. ]

John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.” --John Chapter 17 NIV

 

[walt]

a) I am talking about Jesus' identity.
b) Yes, I do believe in the Trinity.
c) "...whenever I get, for whatever reason a better understanding of something, I change my thinking, beliefs and actions accordingly", so go ahead and change your thinking about who Jesus was/is.
d) I also only seek to extend kindness to you and Christian love, while we both examine the scriptural evidence especially the words of Jesus.

Jim I am not trying to do anything negative, but please could you explain your beliefs about Jesus identity, by Jesus words alone?

• Trinity
• the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God co-equal and co-eternal to each other.
• Does Jesus ever explain he is really not God's son? Or he is not God's one and only son?

 

[Ebionite]

The confusion starts when we try to equate the manifestation of The Word vs when he came in flesh and try to compare His physical appearance from when He was The Word.

The doctrine of the word made flesh is from the gospel of John, and seems to be contrived to provide support for the idea that the crucifixion was the fulfilment of the verse from Zechariah 12 about the word being pierced. The account of the spear piercing the crucified man is also only from John.

 

[YoursTrue]

John 1:14 New International Version
The Word (Logos) became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

In the Christian Bible, the term theos is polysemic and refers to the Hebrew term elohim, encompassing a range of meanings from a judge imbued with divine mission, to a king, a priest, and ultimately to the Almighty God.

John 20:28 and Romans 9:5, among others that employ the term theos, do not necessarily prove that Jesus is the Almighty God.

John 5:23 - "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." They have a very close bond. To honor the Son is to honor the Father, but that does not mean that Jesus is God, 1/3 of God, or equal to the Father in a tripartite relationship (which many people believe includes the holy ghost or spirit). The Father sent the Son.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

you’re right he’s not God. He’s God in the flesh.

Show me where the Bible says “God in the flesh”, please.

Because I can show you, twice, where the Bible says, “No one has ever seen God .”
John 1:18
&
1 John 4:12.

And a third place, where it’s implied (albeit within a more limited scope):
1 John 4:20…
‘If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.’


Thousands saw Jesus, didn’t they?

 

[YoursTrue]

The doctrine of the word made flesh is from the gospel of John, and seems to be contrived to provide support for the idea that the crucifixion was the fulfilment of the verse from Zechariah 12 about the word being pierced. The account of the spear piercing the crucified man is also only from John.

Let me put it this way: Adam, the first man, was made from the earth. By God.

 

[Jimmy]

Show me where the Bible says “God in the flesh”, please.

Because I can show you, twice, where the Bible says, “No one has ever seen God .”
John 1:18
&
1 John 4:12.

And a third place, where it’s implied (albeit within a more limited scope):
1 John 4:20…
‘If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.’


Thousands saw Jesus, didn’t they?

I understand you’re a Jehovah and don’t believe this.

 

[walt]

Show me where the Bible says “God in the flesh”, please.

Because I can show you, twice, where the Bible says, “No one has ever seen God .”
John 1:18
&
1 John 4:12.

And a third place, where it’s implied (albeit within a more limited scope):
1 John 4:20…
‘If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.’


Thousands saw Jesus, didn’t they?

also

New International Version
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, --John 5:37