Jesus is not God

[Ebionite]

Because I can show you, twice, where the Bible says, “No one has ever seen God .”
John 1:18
&
1 John 4:12.

These ideas are from the gospel of John to support of the doctrine that the crucified man was killed to benefit the people in accordance with prophecy:

And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
John 11:49-53

And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Zechariah 12:9-10

 

[Betho_br]

John 5:23 - "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." They have a very close bond. To honor the Son is to honor the Father, but that does not mean that Jesus is God, 1/3 of God, or equal to the Father in a tripartite relationship (which many people believe includes the holy ghost or spirit). The Father sent the Son.

This verse is part of the doctrine of Unity.

 

[Ebionite]

This verse is part of the doctrine of Unity.

The doctrine of the trinity is also related to the contrived account of the spear via the symbols of water and blood:

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
John 19:34

This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1 John 5:6-8

 

[YoursTrue]

This verse is part of the doctrine of Unity.

One of the points in that scripture is that the Father sent the Son. Unity does not mean they are two gods in one. A question arises: why do you think the Son of God was sent (left heaven and came to be born of a virgin)?

 

[Betho_br]

The doctrine of the trinity is also related to the contrived account of the spear via the symbols of water and blood:

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
John 19:34

This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1 John 5:6-8

I understood your point. These verses have variants for those who believe that they have variations.

 

[YoursTrue]

The doctrine of the trinity is also related to the contrived account of the spear via the symbols of water and blood:

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
John 19:34

This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1 John 5:6-8

1 John 5:5 - "Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God."
That does not say that Jesus is God or 1/3 of a Trinity, but that the one who overcomes the world is he who believes that Jesus is the son of God. So it is very important.

 

[Ebionite]

I understood your point. These verses have variants for those who believe that they have variations.

What's interesting about the variations is that in all cases the gospel of John favours the Pharisees. It looks like Eusebius was on point when he reported that "John" was a priest.

 

[YoursTrue]

The doctrine of the trinity is also related to the contrived account of the spear via the symbols of water and blood:

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
John 19:34

This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1 John 5:6-8

1 John 5:5 - "Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God."
That does not say that Jesus is God or 1/3 of a Trinity, but that the one who overcomes the world is he who believes that Jesus is the son of God. So it is very important.

 

[Ebionite]

So it is very important.

How is it important?

 

[blü 2]

The doctrine of the trinity is also related to the contrived account of the spear via the symbols of water and blood:

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
John 19:34

This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1 John 5:6-8

There is of course nothing in 1 John ─ nothing in the NT ─ that suggests either that Jesus is God, or that the Ghost is God, let alone that both are. The closest it gets is in the case of Jesus in John 20:28. where Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and my God". However his remark is not affirmed in any way and conflicts with the denials of Jesus that he's God, found in Paul and all four gospels.

 

[Betho_br]

One of the points in that scripture is that the Father sent the Son. Unity does not mean they are two gods in one. A question arises: why do you think the Son of God was sent (left heaven and came to be born of a virgin)?

1) Deuteronomy 32:46-47 King James Version
And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

2) Isaiah 45:21-25 LXX
Proclaim, and draw near, and take counsel together; Who made this heard from ancient times? Who has since announced it? Is it not me, O Lord? For there is no God but I; There is no just God and Savior besides me. Look to me, and you will be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, the logos of justice has gone out of my mouth, and I will not turn back; that every knee will bow before me, and every tongue will swear by me. Of me it will be said: Truly in the Lord there is justice and strength; They will come to him, but all those who are angry with him will be put to shame. But in the Lord he will be justified, and all the descendants of Israel will boast.

a) How old is it?

b) Who can be looked at and therefore saved?
.
c) What does “all the terms of the earth” mean?

d) Who is the "logos of justice"?
.
e) How will the justification be given?

3) Luke 24:44 King James Version
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Your question is very difficult, and I am almost certain that Jesus read the sacred writings in Greek.

 

[Ebionite]

There is of course nothing in 1 John ─ nothing in the NT ─ that suggests either that Jesus is God, or that the Ghost is God, let alone that both are, except in the case of Jesus perhaps John 20:28. where Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and my God". However his remark is not affirmed in any way and conflicts with the denials of Jesus that he's God, found in Paul and all four gospels.

The term 'God' is so ambiguous as to be practically useless when talking about divine identity. The theology of the gospel of John draws from the idea the Jesus was the word that was pierced in Zechariah 12, so there's more emphasis on his divine nature than what you would find in the other books of the Bible.

 

[Betho_br]

There is of course nothing in 1 John ─ nothing in the NT ─ that suggests either that Jesus is God, or that the Ghost is God, let alone that both are, except in the case of Jesus perhaps John 20:28. where Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and my God". However his remark is not affirmed in any way and conflicts with the denials of Jesus that he's God, found in Paul and all four gospels.

John 1:49 Young's Literal Translation
Nathanael answered and saith to him, `Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the king of Israel.'

I disagree. The author knew very well what the exclusion of "thou art" in John 20:28 means, not to mention that theos in this verse can be elohim (god)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Your logic doesn't hold up. It is clear that the one God the Father was speaking to was also God because He said, in "our image". Not similar, identical.

With this reasoning, with it about
making “man in our image”, if it means “identical” as you say, then the conclusion is, man is “identical” with God.

And btw, God doesn’t talk to himself.

 

[blü 2]

John 1:49 Young's Literal Translation
Nathanael answered and saith to him, `Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the king of Israel.'

I disagree. The author knew very well what the exclusion of "thou art" in John 20:28 means.

"The Son of God" is not God in the NT, and all five versions of Jesus in the NT deny out loud that they're God ─ I set out some of the relevant quotes here >Jesus Failed Right?<.

The Trinity notion is the result of the politics of the early Church, from early in the 2nd century, though debate as to how exactly to promote Jesus to God status while still having only one God delayed the Trinity result till the 4th century.

And as you doubtless know, the Trinity doctrine finally adopted is "a mystery in the strict sense" and a "mystery in the strict sense can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed" ─ which is another way of saying it's incoherent. I set out the nature of that incoherence here >Why So Much Trinity Bashing?<, if you're interested.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

also

New International Version
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, --John 5:37

Yes. There’s a problem using this verse with a trinitarian though. It doesn't specifically say “God”; it says “the Father”, so they will say, “of course no one’s seen the Father; he not God by himself, though.” Or some other way to get around it.

 

[YoursTrue]

How is it important?

It's important to those who understand about overcoming the world.

 

[YoursTrue]

In debate it's not my job to make the opposing argument.

I actually don't debate but offer my opinion.

 

[Ebionite]

I actually don't debate but offer my opinion.

That's fine, but in general people tend to value truth over opinion.

 

[YoursTrue]

With this reasoning, with it about
making “man in our image”, if it means “identical” as you say, then the conclusion is, man is “identical” with God.

And btw, God doesn’t talk to himself.

@jimb question...when God said let us make man in our image, do you think it meant that Adam looked like God?