Jesus is not God

[YoursTrue]

That's fine, but in general people tend to value truth over opinion.

The word opinion was probably not the best choice of words. So Jesus said to Pilate, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

And Pilate wasn't satisfied with that. What did Pilate say, do you remember?

 

[walt]

Yes. There’s a problem using this verse with a trinitarian though. It doesn't specifically say “God”; it says “the Father”, so they will say, “of course no one’s seen the Father; he not God by himself, though.” Or some other way to get around it.

I think we should start with a good foundation, not something we figure out ourselves, or something someone else said, so where do we start?
Write down 20 things Jesus said then get busy doing those things and along the way add something else Jesus says and do that too!

I think that's a great start!

 

[YoursTrue]

1) Deuteronomy 32:46-47 King James Version
And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

2) Isaiah 45:21-25 LXX
Proclaim, and draw near, and take counsel together; Who made this heard from ancient times? Who has since announced it? Is it not me, O Lord? For there is no God but I; There is no just God and Savior besides me. Look to me, and you will be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, the logos of justice has gone out of my mouth, and I will not turn back; that every knee will bow before me, and every tongue will swear by me. Of me it will be said: Truly in the Lord there is justice and strength; They will come to him, but all those who are angry with him will be put to shame. But in the Lord he will be justified, and all the descendants of Israel will boast.

a) How old is it?

b) Who can be looked at and therefore saved?
.
c) What does “all the terms of the earth” mean?

d) Who is the "logos of justice"?
.
e) How will the justification be given?

3) Luke 24:44 King James Version
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Your question is very difficult, and I am almost certain that Jesus read the sacred writings in Greek.

It really isn't that difficult. To simplify things, I'll just reference a portion of the conversation Jesus had with Pilate...
Jesus told Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
From John chapter 18. That's a pretty forthright statement -- "Everyone on the side of the truth listens to me."

 

[Ebionite]

What did Pilate say, do you remember?

The account is fictional.

Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
John 18:31-32

There's no such saying. The closest matches are:

Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
Matthew 20:18

[Saying], Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
Mark 10:33

Also, according to Isaiah he wasn't judged:

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8

 

[YoursTrue]

The account is fictional.

Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
John 18:31-32

There's no such saying. The closest matches are:

Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
Matthew 20:18

[Saying], Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
Mark 10:33

Also, according to Isaiah he wasn't judged:

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8

Thanks for expressing your viewpoint. I do not believe it is fictional. So have a nice evening. I also believe you are misunderstanding and misapplying the verses you post.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The account is fictional.

Is every bit of the Bible fictional, then?

Because if some of it is fictional and some events are real, then who’s got the authority to judge which is real, and which isn’t?
Just saying, “I don’t like what that says, so I’m not going to accept it”, is simply prejudicial bias, based on personal desires.
Or it could be misunderstanding what the account is really saying.

Now certain events & descriptions can be symbolic, but that’s not fiction.

 

[walt]

Yes. There’s a problem using this verse with a trinitarian though. It doesn't specifically say “God”; it says “the Father”, so they will say, “of course no one’s seen the Father; he not God by himself, though.” Or some other way to get around it.

I was not trying to correct you, I was talking about for everyone including myself Jesus words is a good foundation to fallow-through with that's all.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I think we should start with a good foundation, not something we figure out ourselves, or something someone else said, so where do we start?
Write down 20 things Jesus said then get busy doing those things and along the way add something else Jesus says and do that too!

I think that's a great start!

Ok…

1. "Everyone on the side of the truth listens to me."

2. “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of You, the only true God, and of the one whom You sent forth, Jesus Christ.”

3. “You give them something to eat.”

4. “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son so that he may glorify you.”

5. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

6. “I am the resurrection and the life.”

7. “

I was not trying to correct you, I was talking about for everyone including myself Jesus words is a good foundation to fallow-through with that's all.

I know, my brother.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Oops! I was on 7….

 

[Ebionite]

Is every bit of the Bible fictional, then?

No, I gave my reasons for rejecting the text.

 

[Betho_br]

It really isn't that difficult. To simplify things, I'll just reference a portion of the conversation Jesus had with Pilate...
Jesus told Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
From John chapter 18. That's a pretty forthright statement -- "Everyone on the side of the truth listens to me."

Your comment is an example that COMPLEMENTS mine since Pilate is a Gentile, son of a Greco-Roman culture, but it does not resolve the issue of the Jews.

Luke 24:21 kjv
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.


Generally, I don't like to quote Wikipedia in foruns, but I'll make an exception.

Golden_Gate_(Jerusalem)

 

[Betho_br]

The account is fictional.

Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
John 18:31-32

There's no such saying. The closest matches are:

Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
Matthew 20:18

[Saying], Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
Mark 10:33

Also, according to Isaiah he wasn't judged:

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8

I explained this in another topic. The sons of elohim (elohim can also refer to kings, but this is not the case here) cannot shed blood outside of the sacrifice. Many priests used maces to inflict pain without shedding blood.

maces

 

[Betho_br]

5. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

God did not abandon Jesus.

 

[jimb]

But ye [are] they that forsake YHWH, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for GD, and that furnish the drink offering unto MNY.
Isaiah 65:11


In prophecy there's one that stands out.

And YHWH said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, [which] shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Zechariah 11:15-16

Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, [he is] a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and [is] as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increaseth [that which is] not his! how long? and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay!
Shall they not rise up suddenly that shall bite thee, and awake that shall vex thee, and thou shalt be for booties unto them?
Because thou hast spoiled many nations, all the remnant of the people shall spoil thee; because of men's blood, and [for] the violence of the land, of the city, and of all that dwell therein.
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!
Thou hast consulted shame to thy house by cutting off many people, and hast sinned [against] thy soul.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it.
Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and stablisheth a city by iniquity!
Habakkuk 2:4-12

Would you please translate this into English?

Remember, all the authors of the Biblical wrote wrote in the common languages of their time and Jesus spoke Aramaic, a peoples' dialect.

 

[jimb]

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

Please refer to the previous message.

 

[jimb]

Traditional Christianity doesn't comprehend the set-apart (translated as holy).

They shall be holy unto their Elah, and not profane the name of their Elah: for the offerings of YHWH made by fire, [and] the bread of their Elah, they do offer: therefore they shall be holy.
Leviticus 21:6

Levitical priests must be holy to their God and must not profane the name of their God. Because they present the food offerings to the Lord, the food of their God, they are to be holy.

This doesn't apply to anyone else. Therefore, your claim that "traditional Christianity doesn't comprehend the set-apart (translated as holy)" is not relevant. a) Therefore, it doesn't follow that therefore, traditional Christians (not Christianity) don't understand holiness. b) The Old Covenant, including the sacrificial system, is not relevant for Christians.

In the New Testament, a) all Christians are part of God's family and b) only specific people, for example, apostles, were set apart for specific tasks.

 

[jimb]

Sorry but I don't understand your message. It's over my head. Take care.

Don't worry about it. @Ebionite quotes parts of the Old Covenant out of context to try to justify his ideas of what Christianity is. Of course, it doesn't work.

 

[jimb]

So then are you saying humans look like God?

Spiritually (if they are born of the Spirit).

 

[jimb]

Oh yes, and God didn't say let us make moths in our image.

No, He certainly didn't! LOL!!!

 

[jimb]

True, Jesus is not God. Jesus is the SON of GOD with equal power that the Father gave him. God is actually Jehovah. He gave us his name so we knew the true God to worship. God is a titled name, like president, teacher, manager. There are many gods in the world, so Jehovah wanted us to know the true God to follow and worship. Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was i not known to them.

Jesus is God. That's what the Bible states, and that's what I believe.

John 10:30, "I and the Father are one.”