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Jesus is not God

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
And, as a man, you are deciding it isn’t?
As a man who can come to a rational conclusion about the difference between speech and writing.

As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith YHWH; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith YHWH, from henceforth and for ever.
Isaiah 59:21
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
You quoted it about faith. And yes, faith without works is dead.

James 2:14-26
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action,f is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that God is one.g Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?h Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the spies and sent them off on another route? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
I agree with what you have found in the Bible 100%
[ add any scriptures you find please do.. but remember instructions in one scripture do not in most cases cancel out instructions in another ]

First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. --Acts 26:20 NIV

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. --James 1:22 KJV

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—Ephesians 2:8

Berean Standard Bible
“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able. --Luke 13:24

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
--Matthew 7:21 NIV

These are all scriptures in the New Testament, why can't they all be taken as true reliable instructions for Christians? Does it say in the Bible somewhere we can just pick and choose our favorite scriptures and leave out others? No I don't think so!

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, --2nd Timothy 3:16 NIV
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
As a man who can come to a rational conclusion about the difference between speech and writing.

As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith YHWH; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith YHWH, from henceforth and for ever.
Isaiah 59:21
Yes, there's a difference between speech and writing. Excellent point.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Still not a person.
God has a name. God spoke to Moses. He is a person. Exodus 33

"The LORD replied, “I will personally go with you, Moses, and I will give you rest—everything will be fine for you.”

15Then Moses said, “If you don’t personally go with us, don’t make us leave this place. 16How will anyone know that you look favorably on me—on me and on your people—if you don’t go with us? For your presence among us sets your people and me apart from all other people on the earth.”

17The LORD replied to Moses, “I will indeed do what you have asked, for I look favorably on you, and I know you by name.”

18Moses responded, “Then show me your glorious presence.”

19The LORD replied, “I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will call out my name, Yahweh,c before you. For I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose. 20But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21The LORD continued, “Look, stand near me on this rock. 22As my glorious presence passes by, I will hide you in the crevice of the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and let you see me from behind. But my face will not be seen.”
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Your truth. Plus you’re not even Christian!
I know many claiming to be Christian who are adulterers, and lying in business.

When does one’s actions stop them from being a Christian?

Paul’s counsel at 1 Corinthians 5, esp.vs.13, should be applied, but in mainstream Christendom, only the Catholics do it; and that is only for heresy.

Jesus knows. — Matthew 7:21-23
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Because there's no reliable theology to support the idea and the related prophetic texts describe another man being crucified.
Is it your understanding that it was not Jesus put to death but rather another man put to death in his place? Just trying to understand what you said above. Thanks.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
Seriously? You take Acts 21:20 (out of context) to claim that Christians are under the OT law? Paul stated many times about being under the OT law vs having freedom in Christ. Here is just three examples...

Romans 6:14, "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."

Romans 7:1-6, with my emphasis): Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

2nd Corinthians 3:6 expresses the same thought, but uses different wording: "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Is that clear enough for you???
Were these letters not addressed to Greco-Roman gentiles? Weren't they "outside" the law and wasn't this confirmed by the Jerusalem council?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
“I am the way…
Yes, “the way” to Whom?
John 14:6 continues (NIV):
No one comes to the Father except through me.”
…the truth…
And Who taught him that truth?

At John 8:28,29, Jesus said, “I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things. 29 And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.
…and the life.”
Even that, Jesus said, was “granted” by the Father to him. (John 5:26….”For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.”
As Jesus further stated at Matthew 28:18 (after his resurrection): “ All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth.”
If Jesus was God, he would have had the authority from the beginning.

It’s not a wise move to take what belongs to Jesus’ God and attribute it to Jesus.

And by the way, I’m not “a Jehovah“ (that’s similar to if I said, “you’re a Jesus”); I am just one of His servants / witnesses / people, trying to follow & imitate His Son, ie., be a Christian, the best I can.

Hey, at least we agree on evolution!

Take care.
 
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walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Does anyone want to see my list?
of over a hundred times the New Testament, uses the word [ son ] in reference to Jesus, and the word [ father ] in reference to his father in heaven.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
As a man who can come to a rational conclusion about the difference between speech and writing.

As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith YHWH; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith YHWH, from henceforth and for ever.
Isaiah 59:21

:) I so glad you are so much better than the one who heard, who saw with his eyes, who has looked upon, and whose hands have handled the Word of life;
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Does anyone want to see my list?
of over a hundred times the New Testament, uses the word [ son ] in reference to Jesus, and the word [ father ] in reference to his father in heaven.
Yes, I would wholeheartedly agree… but you are referring to the earthly manifestation of The Word as a man. The one who: AMPC Phil 2:6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, 7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. 8 And after He had appeared in human form,

However, as The Word - The Eternal - Emmanuel - God with us - it is a different story.

Remember, you are a tri-part being - spirit, soul and body. Your spirit is the greatest, then your soul and lastly your body but all of you is still one.
 

Ignatius A

Well-Known Member
This is NOT about what God can and cannot do. It is about what is in the Bible.

The Bible says that Jesus is not God and that is how we know that Jesus is not God.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Since no one has ever 'seen God' on that basis alone we know that Jesus cannot be God, since many people saw Jesus.
One would have to throw out most of the New Testament to maintain that Jesus is God, since many people saw Jesus in the NT.

We also know that those who saw the face of Jesus continued to live, so Jesus could not have been God.

Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

That is aside from the fact that if the Bible is correct in the way God is described, there is no way that Jesus can be God since God is All-powerful, All-knowing, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have those attributes, since Jesus was a man and no man can have those attributes. That means that logically speaking Jesus is not God.

~~~~~~~~~~~

You cannot believe that Jesus is God incarnate and still believe in the Bible.
I suggest that you and all the other Trinitarians ask yourselves why you want Jesus to be God.

I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God in the flesh, but that is not the same as God becoming flesh. God cannot become flesh because God is spirit.
Jesus came in the flesh and manifested God's attributes and revealed God's will but the essence of God did not become flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Being manifested in the flesh is not the same as being incarnated in the flesh. The excerpt below from a longer article explains the difference between a Manifestation of God and an incarnation of God.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)…..
Jesus said he was. That's in the bible btw
 
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