Jesus is not God

[Oeste]

Where does Jesus say "I am God?"

The Father tells us this, and since Jesus agrees with the Father, there is no need for Christians to disagree.

You can help show this on my next post.

The Father is God. The Son is the Son of God.

On this, @Trailblazer we definitely agree!

Anyone who was not duped by the Trinity doctrine would know that.

Trinitarian know the Father is God and the Son is the Son of God. You are Baháʼí, and even you agree with this. Please explain how only those “not duped by the Trinity doctrine” would know this when it is something Trinitarians already know.

We are all ears.

There is no such thing as 'God the Son' in the Bible

Thank you for mentioning this because it's been mentioned before and I admit I do not understand the point. Are you alleging that because ‘God the Son’ is not in the Bible, that Jesus is not God???

I recognize you’re not the first on this forum to mention this, but let’s try to reason this out together.

The term “Son of God” and “Son of Man” are BOTH in the bible. Do you Agree?

So, if Jesus is not God simply because ‘God the Son’ is not in the Bible, then Jesus is not man simply because ‘Man the Son’ is not in the bible either.

IOW, using the same, consistent logic, Trinitarians should be expected to show ‘God the Son’ only when our Baháʼí or Jehovah Witness friends show us ‘Man the Son’ in scripture. Otherwise, to be logically consistent, we would determine Jesus is neither God or Man depending on our POV, and while I can understand why a non-Christian religion might do this, I do not see why Jehovah Witnesses, who by doctrine present themselves as the only “true” Christians, would be eager to follow suit.

 

[Oeste]

I have to travel for a few days and won’t be able to get back to this thread until the weekend. However, I would like to once again run a simple “sanity” check….not for your benefit, but for mine… just to make sure we are all on the same page. Otherwise, I fear I may be in a world where hippos can logically beget geese.

I know our non-Trinitarian friends are not actually arguing hippos can give birth to geese, but it can sometimes feels that way to Trinitarians. So I would love to get input on a simple thought experiment posted earlier, but which has yet to receive a logical response.

This thought experiment is one Trinitarians can answer rather easily, but it seems to pose some difficulty with certain non-Trinitarians.

1. The only begotten son of frog is frog.​

​

2. The only begotten son of dog is dog.​

​

3. The only begotten son of man is man.​

​

4. The only begotten son of God is __________?​

I've left #4 open and blank. Anyone with a logical, coherent answer and basis is welcome to answer. Also, I understand there may be some who balk at statements 1-3, hence my tongue-in-cheek concern regarding hippos.

So 1-3 are open to discussion as well.

 

[cataway]

I have to travel for a few days and won’t be able to get back to this thread until the weekend. However, I would like to once again run a simple “sanity” check….not for your benefit, but for mine… just to make sure we are all on the same page. Otherwise, I fear I may be in a world where hippos can logically beget geese.

I know our non-Trinitarian friends are not actually arguing hippos can give birth to geese, but it can sometimes feels that way to Trinitarians. So I would love to get input on a simple thought experiment posted earlier, but which has yet to receive a logical response.

This thought experiment is one Trinitarians can answer rather easily, but it seems to pose some difficulty with certain non-Trinitarians.

1. The only begotten son of frog is frog.​

​

2. The only begotten son of dog is dog.​

​

3. The only begotten son of man is man.​

​

4. The only begotten son of God is __________?​

I've left #4 open and blank. Anyone with a logical, coherent answer and basis is welcome to answer. Also, I understand there may be some who balk at statements 1-3, hence my tongue-in-cheek concern regarding hippos.

So 1-3 are open to discussion as well.

the son of god

 

[walt]

I have to travel for a few days and won’t be able to get back to this thread until the weekend. However, I would like to once again run a simple “sanity” check….not for your benefit, but for mine… just to make sure we are all on the same page. Otherwise, I fear I may be in a world where hippos can logically beget geese.

I know our non-Trinitarian friends are not actually arguing hippos can give birth to geese, but it can sometimes feels that way to Trinitarians. So I would love to get input on a simple thought experiment posted earlier, but which has yet to receive a logical response.

This thought experiment is one Trinitarians can answer rather easily, but it seems to pose some difficulty with certain non-Trinitarians.

1. The only begotten son of frog is frog.​

​

2. The only begotten son of dog is dog.​

​

3. The only begotten son of man is man.​

​

4. The only begotten son of God is __________?​

I've left #4 open and blank. Anyone with a logical, coherent answer and basis is welcome to answer. Also, I understand there may be some who balk at statements 1-3, hence my tongue-in-cheek concern regarding hippos.

So 1-3 are open to discussion as well.

Does that really make sense what you're saying? the only begotten of a human son, is he human? they're both human, but your father is still your father and you are still his son.

you are both human, but at no time are you each other, you are never your father and your father is never you, unless you're a rama lama ding dong.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Father tells us this, and since Jesus agrees with the Father, there is no need for Christians to disagree.

The Father does not tell us that Jesus is God.

Trinitarian know the Father is God and the Son is the Son of God. You are Baháʼí, and even you agree with this. Please explain how only those “not duped by the Trinity doctrine” would know this when it is something Trinitarians already know.

We are all ears.

That is not what Trinitarians already know. They believe that the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

Thank you for mentioning this because it's been mentioned before and I admit I do not understand the point. Are you alleging that because ‘God the Son’ is not in the Bible, that Jesus is not God???

That is one reason but there are many other reasons why Jesus is not God.

I recognize you’re not the first on this forum to mention this, but let’s try to reason this out together.

The term “Son of God” and “Son of Man” are BOTH in the bible. Do you Agree?

Yes, I agree.

So, if Jesus is not God simply because ‘God the Son’ is not in the Bible, then Jesus is not man simply because ‘Man the Son’ is not in the bible either.

I did not say that Jesus is not God simply because ‘God the Son’ is not in the Bible. There are many other reasons why Jesus cannot be God.

IOW, using the same, consistent logic, Trinitarians should be expected to show ‘God the Son’ only when our Baháʼí or Jehovah Witness friends show us ‘Man the Son’ in scripture. Otherwise, to be logically consistent, we would determine Jesus is neither God or Man depending on our POV, and while I can understand why a non-Christian religion might do this, I do not see why Jehovah Witnesses, who by doctrine present themselves as the only “true” Christians, would be eager to follow suit.

That logic is completely faulty. God the Son does not even make sense because God is the Father, NOT the Son.

Scripture refers to the Son or God and the Son of man and in the context of the verses, both refer to Jesus.

God the Son does not appear in any scripture because it is a man-made Trinitarian doctrine.

 

[Trailblazer]

4. The only begotten son of God is __________?

the Son of God.

 

[Coder]

I believe in God (not an atheist).

Jesus was used as a human-like figure to replace the pagan human-like gods (Jupiter, Apollo, Orion, …). This was done under the demands of the Roman Empire for a unified religion. Jesus had to be a human-like figure as the human-like pagan gods were, but he also had to be a human-like figure ("image") of the true God, in order to transfer the thinking from the pagan gods to the true God.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

John 14: 9. You need to wake up

John 14:9….
*”Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”*

If this was meant literally, then Jesus is the Father? That would mean that Jesus was praying to himself!

Or maybe…Jesus said,
“Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father,” because he’s “the image of the invisible God” (2 Corinthians 4:4); and Hebrews 1:3 calls Jesus, “the exact representation of His very being.”

In no way does “image” & “exact representation” mean the genuine article.

And Christians are to avoid worshipping images! It’s the worst thing Paul could have said, if Jesus were “the only true God”. -- John 17:3

No… to follow Jesus, means to worship who he worshipped, his Father. — John 4:23,24.

Take care.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

1. The only begotten son of frog is frog.

And now, there are TWO frogs.

2. The only begotten son of dog is dog.

And now, there are TWO dogs.

3. The only begotten son of man is man.

Now, there are TWO men.

4. The only begotten son of God is __________?

Now there are TWO Gods?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I agree with you 100%

King James Bible
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

The first scripture says not seen the second scripture says seen it is obvious we cannot determine Jesus Is God from these two scriptures!

Good point!

 

[Coder]

And now, there are TWO frogs.

And now, there are TWO dogs.

Now, there are TWO men.

Now there are TWO Gods?

The emperors were called divine and son of the divine (divi filius). The Greco-Roman gods had sons of gods. Jesus was called "son of God" in the Bible, in order to use language that the Greco-Roman pagans could relate to. I believe that parts of the Bible reflect inspiration by God, other parts of the Bible are there to serve purposes of the Roman Empire. However, I will use the Bible, because like the language and parables for Greco Roman pagans, the Bible is language that many refer to. So for example, some say that Jesus is an angel (Michael), this can be randomly made up to find a way to make Jesus a spiritual being but not the son of God. However, if you want to use the Bible, use Hebrews 1:5. Some might find a way to say that Jesus is an "angel" but this is uncommon compared to other parts of the Bible that have other descriptions for Him, such as messiah and son of God. And as mentioned, Hebrews 1:5 discredits calling Jesus an angel.

A major problem is that people throughout the centuries allow themselves to be used by religions, thinking that the leaders have no interest in power and control for their own purposes. I agree that Jesus is not part of a trinity. Probably some people realized that much of Catholic theology was driven by the influence of the the Roman Empire. However, instead of using truth to set people free from error, organizations can use a new religion to enslave people for their gain. One must use their intelligence and discernment to see it.

Many times, religious organizations can start out being used for a power, control, and / or money purposes. Later, these organizations can become more legitimate, but they still have all the theological errors that they started with. Christianity was originally used by the Roman Empire, other religious organizations in America can be originally used by the founders to make money. In all these cases, the organizations maintain errors and sometimes they inherit errors from religions that they inherit from, and they may correct some, but add others.

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay, I'll play your game... "was" is in the imperfect tense: a tense of verbs used in describing action that is on-going." Therefore, Jesus is still God.

The Trinity doctrine has it that the son is equal to the Father, right? How do you understand what Jesus said about his relation to his Father in heaven?
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28
Jesus did not say he was equal to the Father, but rather that the Father is greater than he is.

 

[YoursTrue]

The emperors were called divine and son of the divine (divi filius). The Greco-Roman gods had sons of gods. Jesus was called "son of God" in the Bible, in order to use language that the Greco-Roman pagans could relate to. I believe that parts of the Bible reflect inspiration by God, other parts of the Bible are there to serve purposes of the Roman Empire. However, I will use the Bible, because like the language and parables for Greco Roman pagans, the Bible is language that many refer to. So for example, some say that Jesus is an angel (Michael), this can be randomly made up to find a way to make Jesus a spiritual being but not the son of God. However, if you want to use the Bible, use Hebrews 1:5. Some might find a way to say that Jesus is an "angel" but this is uncommon compared to other parts of the Bible that have other descriptions for Him, such as messiah and son of God. And as mentioned, Hebrews 1:5 discredits calling Jesus an angel.

A major problem is that people throughout the centuries allow themselves to be used by religions, thinking that the leaders have no interest in power and control for their own purposes. I agree that Jesus is not part of a trinity. Probably some people realized that much of Catholic theology was driven by the influence of the the Roman Empire. However, instead of using truth to set people free from error, organizations can use a new religion to enslave people for their gain. One must use their intelligence and discernment to see it.

Many times, religious organizations can start out being used for a power, control, and / or money purposes. Later, these organizations can become more legitimate, but they still have all the theological errors that they started with. Christianity was originally used by the Roman Empire, other religious organizations in America can be originally used by the founders to make money. In all these cases, the organizations maintain errors and sometimes they inherit errors from religions that they inherit from, and they may correct some, but add others.

You bring out many points here, much to be discussed in depth perhaps, but when Jesus was on the earth he spoke to people and performed some miracles. There were the disciples of John the Baptizer. And after Jesus died and went to heaven there were factions. As we see from the scriptures, the disciples in the first century had some 'straightening out' to do. With God's help we can make the right decision.

 

[Coder]

The Trinity doctrine has it that the son is equal to the Father, right? How do you understand what Jesus said about his relation to his Father in heaven?
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28
Jesus did not say he was equal to the Father, but rather that the Father is greater than he is.

John 14;28 "The Father is greater than I"
This helps Greek-Roman pagans become Christians. It's a perfect Scripture for the book of John that was ramping up the efforts to make Jesus a "god" figure that meets several Greek-Roman pagan criteria.

"Jupiter, the most powerful of all gods ... shared ... several divine characteristics with Mars and Quirinus"

Religion in ancient Rome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jupiter "greater than" Mars.

"...the demiurge is not necessarily the same as the creator figure..., the demiurge ... considered consequences of something else."
"...the demiurge is the fashioner..., but ... is still not itself 'the One'."

Demiurge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Demiurge is a lesser god. Jesus is "lesser than" God. Demiurge is also clearly seen in John 1.

"...Zoroastrianism treats Ahura Mazda as the supreme god, but that Zoroastrians believes in lesser divinities..."

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lesser gods. Jesus "is lesser" than God.

People use the Bible as if it all of it has real meaning in the sense of objective truth. This is a huge error, right off the bat. Much of the New Testament was only used as tool for Greco-Roman pagan conversion to Christianity, and has no real meaning regarding the truth about God.

 

[Coder]

You bring out many points here, much to be discussed in depth perhaps, but when Jesus was on the earth he spoke to people and performed some miracles. There were the disciples of John the Baptizer. And after Jesus died and went to heaven there were factions. As we see from the scriptures, the disciples in the first century had some 'straightening out' to do. With God's help we can make the right decision.

"...but when Jesus was on the earth he spoke to people and performed some miracles."
Such as walking on water just like the Greek god Orion. Orion walked on the waves and the Bible even made sure that there was a storm so the water had waves just as the water Orion walked on does. Orion's power was given to him by his "father". Perfect to help a Greek pagan in conversion. The Bible is "inspired", yes, it's "inspired" to convert Greco-Roman pagans under pressure from the Roman Empire. These "miracles" are parables (fibs) for that purpose.

(Not to mention that God doesn't stoop to miracles to prove anything.)

(Further, Matt 12:39, Jesus speaks about the evil of demanding a sign and that no sign except one will be given. So there goes all the other miracles in the New Testament. They are fake and made up, and they better be, because as Jesus says, need for miracles is evil, and we know that the almighty God does not stoop to miracles to prove anything to us.)

 

[stephenpiper]

Thanks for sharing your point of view but it not real, you should try out first, go to my website and do one of those prayer that is present in my website, you will surely believe in divine presence!

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

1. The only begotten son of frog is frog.
2. The only begotten son of dog is dog.
3. The only begotten son of man is man.
4. The only begotten son of God is __________?

I think we should first clarify how God reproduces himself. Do we agree that frogs, dogs, humans and God do not have the same kind of intercourse? If this is the case, then we must also assume that "begotten" has more than one meaning here.

 

[Ignatius A]

John 14:9….
*”Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”*

If this was meant literally, then Jesus is the Father? That would mean that Jesus was praying to himself!

Or maybe…Jesus said,
“Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father,” because he’s “the image of the invisible God” (2 Corinthians 4:4); and Hebrews 1:3 calls Jesus, “the exact representation of His very being.”

In no way does “image” & “exact representation” mean the genuine article.

And Christians are to avoid worshipping images! It’s the worst thing Paul could have said, if Jesus were “the only true God”. -- John 17:3

No… to follow Jesus, means to worship who he worshipped, his Father. — John 4:23,24.

Take care.

Jesus is not the father but Jesus is God. Whoever has seen the son has seen the father. John is clear, the the word was God. And the word (God) became flesh(Jesus) and dwelt among us.

 

[cataway]

Jesus is not the father but Jesus is God. Whoever has seen the son has seen the father. John is clear, the the word was God. And the word (God) became flesh(Jesus) and dwelt among us.

i will let you say Jesus is A god .
a true god would never have to pray to another god for permission for something to happen .

 

[Ignatius A]

i will let you say Jesus is A god .
a true god would never have to pray to another god for permission for something to happen .

What you will let me do is irrelevant. Jesus is God

Kenosis. You people are a hoot.