Jesus is not God

[Ebionite]

Is it your understanding that it was not Jesus put to death but rather another man put to death in his place? Just trying to understand what you said above. Thanks.

Yes, the crucified man of Psalm 22 and 69 is not the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 35.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, YHWH has no regard for persons.

God has regard for people and prophets, but God had no regard for the three persons of the Trinity doctrine.

 

[Ebionite]

I so glad you are so much better than the one who heard, who saw with his eyes, who has looked upon, and whose hands have handled the Word of life;

The Word is intangible, and a testament is of the dead.

 

[Kenny]

The Word is intangible, and a testament is of the dead.

That isn’t what Jesus said

 

[Ebionite]

God has regard for people and prophets, but God had no regard for the three persons of the Trinity doctrine.

In the KJV, person can be a translation of face, meaning appearance. This relates to the distinction between speech and sight.

"My sheep hear my voice"

 

[Ebionite]

That isn’t what Jesus said

No, it's not what the writer of the gospel of John said.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, YHWH has no regard for persons.

He cares for people. The day of judgment is coming.

 

[YoursTrue]

In the KJV, person can be a translation of face, meaning appearance. This relates to the distinction between speech and sight.

"My sheep hear my voice"

And the one speaking is a person.

 

[YoursTrue]

I showed you where Jesus said otherwise and where other Scripture says otherwise.

When you put it all together, Jesus is the Son and the Father is greater than Jesus.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, YHWH has no regard for persons.

What does that mean?

"...but when Jesus was on the earth he spoke to people and performed some miracles."
Such as walking on water just like the Greek god Orion. Orion walked on the waves and the Bible even made sure that there was a storm so the water had waves just as the water Orion walked on does. Orion's power was given to him by his "father". Perfect to help a Greek pagan in conversion. The Bible is "inspired", yes, it's "inspired" to convert Greco-Roman pagans under pressure from the Roman Empire. These "miracles" are parables (fibs) for that purpose.

(Not to mention that God doesn't stoop to miracles to prove anything.)

(Further, Matt 12:39, Jesus speaks about the evil of demanding a sign and that no sign except one will be given. So there goes all the other miracles in the New Testament. They are fake and made up, and they better be, because as Jesus says, need for miracles is evil, and we know that the almighty God does not stoop to miracles to prove anything to us.)

Jesus was able to perform miracles. The request demanding a sign by the Pharisees and scribes was not honored by Jesus. That does not negate the miracles he performed.

 

[YoursTrue]

Enjoying your debate about 2000 year old writings that were fabricated to help Roman emperors convert a population and have no bearing in objective truth? The religion was a forced state religion. That is more than enough clue for you. However, by all means, carry on. Just be aware that you can fast forward to a higher level anytime.

And your higher level is?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Jesus is not the father but Jesus is God. Whoever has seen the son has seen the father. John is clear, the the word was God. And the word (God) became flesh(Jesus) and dwelt among us.

Do you understand, that makes no sense?

There’s only *ONE* God, the Father. — 1 Corinthians 8:5,6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Exodus 20:2-6.

Anything more, is polytheism.

 

[walt]

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

John 10:38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” NIV

Does Jesus explain what it means to be one?

John 17:20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you,b that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one,

 

[walt]

Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father --John 14:9 * if we look at other verses, does it help us understand?
Is this talking about Oneness in Unity? If God is a spirit and invisible is it possible to see God anyway?

One scripture says you have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape, the next says, he that has seen me has seen the father. One scripture says God is a spirit. Three scriptures say God is invisible.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. King James Bible

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

John 6:46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father.

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time;...

Exodus 33:20 But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

God is invisible Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 1:17, Hebrews 11:27

 

[walt]

Im·manʹu·el. "God is with us"

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore, Yahweh himself will give you a sign: Look! The young woman* will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will name him Im·manʹu·el.

Isaiah 8:8
And sweep through Judah. He will flood and pass through, reaching to the neck; His outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Im·manʹu·el!”

Isaiah 8:10
Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted! Say what you like, but it will not succeed, For God is with us!

Wouldn't you say these scriptures whether you said O Im·manʹu·el or God is with us!
The people that use these words, have God with them?

Jesus was called this prophetic name, don't you think "God was with him" ? and with Joseph and Mary?

The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. --Luke 1:35

What the angel says here it is surely obvious "God is with us" God's Holy Spirit and the power of the Most High is with Jesus when hs was conceived as a baby, at his baptism, throughout his ministry and at his resurrection and more..

John 8:29
The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” --NIV

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Enjoying your debate about 2000 year old writings that were fabricated to help Roman emperors convert a population and have no bearing in objective truth? The religion was a forced state religion. That is more than enough clue for you. However, by all means, carry on. Just be aware that you can fast forward to a higher level anytime.

Christianity was hijacked by apostates, early on. During the Apostles’ time, ie., 1st Century, even tho these first Christians were from different countries they loved each other. They obeyed Christ’s command to love (John 13:34,35; John 15:12; John 15:17); they were “no part of the world” (John 15:19).

The Romans hated the early Christians, and put them in the gladiatorial arenas. (Look it up.)

But during Constantine the Great’s reign, apostate Christians joined the state and began killing each other, disobeying Christ.

Yes, Christendom became a pawn of the state — later even controlling the state — but it certainly didn’t start out that way.

You should know that.

@YoursTrue does.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What you will let me do is irrelevant. Jesus is God

Kenosis. You people are a hoot.

Jesus said his Father was “the only true God.” (John 17:3) (And Jesus didn’t include himself.)
What does “only” mean to you?

(From Dictionary.com):
Only —adverb. without others or anything further; alone; solely; exclusively.


By adding Jesus as God, you’re breaking the First commandment!
Exodus 20:2-6

Jesus said at John 4:23,24 (NLT)…
“But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.”

Again, Jesus didn’t include himself.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

…because as Jesus says, need for miracles is evil…

No, it says demanding a miracle is evil.
You’re twisting words, my cousin.

They (the Pharisees, common Jews, and his disciples) had seen Jesus perform many signs and miracles. Demanding another, was just unneeded, and revealed their wicked motives.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It's not whether one may have some valid points, it's the claim to have all the answers and be "the way". Use of terms like "apostate" (such an ugly term) as if more false answers and use of the same Roman-erroneous Scriptures is any better. A spirit of humble working together is "the way" much more than a "particular group" is "the way". After all, people believe the Bible is the word of God, as you are using it, but no basis for that either, except what a fellow human tells us. There is the "religion group" game. There is also the "open and honest" humility game. You could respond to my other post if you'd like, about Jesus as angel error. Not that I believe in that game but sometimes one must play one game to get to the real discussion. Religion is not a job to be done blindly and ignore things that show flaws in a particular group's reasoning. Religion is sincerity, not - dominance, and one must be "under" a particular group and then they will "behave". With intelligence one can discern the difference in the approach with pre-canned things (like "apostate") and not be preyed upon by any particular group that say that "they have the answer".

It's would be so refreshing to see someone humbly say "yes, you're right, Jesus as an angel doesn't have a strong Biblical basis except if I simply claim that's my belief". I don't use the Bible this way anyway but for those who insist on it, then I'll will go along simply to show when even their use of the Bible doesn't fit.

I don't have all the answers, that's my group. That's the group I'm recruiting for: The "We admit that we don't have all the answers but we do believe in God and we do know to be gracious to our fellow human beings" group, That's my group. People can join that group, and put their walls down, and have actual real conversation.

BTW, I didn’t arrive at any of this on my own; but after a thorough examination of what I was being taught, and seeing how it harmonized with the rest of Scripture, it helped to convince me.

But really, what Jesus said about how to identify His followers, cuts through and beyond any debate on doctrine. He said: “ I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, that you also loved one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” — John 13:34,35

How does Christendom hold up, going by these standards?

Have trinitarians shown “love among themselves”, or have they joined in wars and killed their ‘brothers in Christ’?

Those who follow Christ, heed His commands. — John 15:12; John 15:17; John 15:19.

Do you know that Jesus said He wouldn’t accept everyone calling Him “Lord”? — Matthew 7:21-23

Question: If these ones calling Jesus “Lord” are “doing powerful works”, even ‘expelling demons’, but Jesus denies them…. from where are they getting this power to “perform powerful works”?

The answer — really, the only option there is — should be eye-opening.


(I want to add: this is basically addressing the leaders of Christendom, who should know better. The people who are taught by these leaders, are mostly misled. Very little guilt is on them.)

 

[Kenny]

In the KJV, person can be a translation of face, meaning appearance. This relates to the distinction between speech and sight.

"My sheep hear my voice"

Wait a minute… you just quoted John. If you are going to propose false ideas, then at least be consistent and not double-minded.