Jesus is not God

[Trailblazer]

That's very interesting, and laudable.

Please tell me: is that a result of all the Bahais in the world having a centralized leadership that interprets Baha'i's writings for all of you, or does it mean that everyone who reads those writings understands the same things?

It is because of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah that we have a centralized leadership under the Universal House of Justice (UHJ).

The Covenant is a big subject, but this website explains it pretty well.

Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant

The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community

www.bahai.org

Baha'is who read the writings don't understand them exactly the same way since we are all thinking with different minds. Just like Christians have Bible study, Baha'is have study groups where they discuss the writings and their meanings.

 

[walt]

The verses are all throughout the book.

Can you give me your two best scriptures from the Bible that are fulfilled in your holy scriptures?

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you give me your two best scriptures from the Bible that are fulfilled in your holy scriptures?

It would be difficult to pick out which ones are 'best' since there are so many, in the OT and the NT.
If you can give me an idea of what you are looking for it would be easier...
But I am up way past my bedtime, again, so I am signing off now. See you tomorrow!

 

[walt]

But as I just asked you in the last post, what do you think that means?
What will the new earth be like? New can mean anything that isn't like the old.

Old Testament:
“See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. -Isaiah 65:17 NIV

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. -Isaiah 66:22 NIV

New Testament:
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. -2 Peter 3:13 NIV

Book of Revelation from an angel:
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. -Revelation 21:1 NIV

 

[jimb]

I agree 100% My Brother.
I believe the Bible has so many inspired words, and the key to understanding them is using all of them! 100% And the keys to not understanding, is for a person to use only favorite scriptures!

• By using 100% of the words in the Holy Scriptures, our understanding Is so much more complete!
• Use all Jesus words to determine truth, not just a few!
• If we look at only part of the scriptures, we get only part of the truth, don't you think?
• If we look at all the scriptures we can find, don't we get much more understanding?

Great post that EVERYONE should read. It is too easy to extract just a part of Scripture to reinforce a predetermined doctrine instead of considering the meaning in context.

I would add that people should read a translation that they can understand. The KJV might come across as "holy" but it is difficult for most people to understand archaic English.

 

[jimb]

you seam to have a problem with and when the resurrection happens . no one has been resurrected for close to 2000 years . Jesus did it and so did the apostles of that time . we know that the resurrection of the dead is an event that happens in the future . your words seam to make it a here and now thing.

If the word "Deus" from the OP represents "The Almighty God," then it is true that the Christian Bible does not explicitly and impartially express, in a complete and literal manner, that JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD. There is no verse that directly states this. "Theos" is related to "elohim," and Moses was called an elohim (Exodus 21:6). In summary, the Christian Bible clearly states that Jesus was an elohim SIMILAR to Moses, a point even echoed in the Quran. However, here in the forum, I have encountered Jews, or those who claim to be Jews, who deny that the word elohim is used for Moses, for the sons of kings, for priests. There's even a very rich and detailed study explaining its usage right here in the RF. All Abrahamic religions could benefit from a common link, with a Jesus more qualified in a rational, critical, and historical-grammatical sense, while leaving differing aspects as matters of faith practice, without imposing on others.

John 1:1, "In the beginning the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

 

[jimb]

These points make sense to me what do you think?

Is there proof for the inspiration of the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

Is there proof for the inspiration of the Bible? How can we know for sure that the Scriptures are God-breathed?

www.gotquestions.org

The Bible clearly states that "all Scripture is God-breathed" or "... inspired by God". (2 Timothy 3:16), so it is irrelevant if some people think otherwise.

 

[jimb]

Can I answer?

When a person learns who the True God is, which is Jesus’ Father (John 17:3; John 4:23), the God of the ancient Israelites and the Jews, whom Jesus himself worshipped (John 20:17), the person begins to appreciate the Bible is Jesus’ Fathers’ Word.
Jesus’ statement @ Luke 10:21 has more meaning, then.

Then, Jesus’ Father — ie., Jehovah God — blesses those who turn to Him in worship. This results in Him giving them His spirit, the fruitage of which “is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, mildness, faith, and self-control.” — Galatians 5:22-23

As a group, these qualities overflow among Jehovah’s worshippers.
Why? Because of striving to live by His principles, found in His Word.

Worshipping only Jehovah (as stated in Exodus 20:2-5), through Christ (John 14:6; Romans 5:10,11);
avoiding behaviors & activities the Bible denounces (1 Cor. 6:9,10); and showing love not only to God (1 John 5:3; Matthew 7:21) but also to spiritual brothers, strangers, and even enemies (John 15:12: Matthew 22:37-39; Matthew 5:44)….. The Bible tells us the “distinction” would be obvious to those looking.— Malachi 3:17,18. See John 13:35, “all will know…”


This difference is observed around the world!

I hope I answered your question… maybe from an angle you weren’t expecting.

Your not understanding the Trinity of 1) Father, 2) Son, and 3) Holy Spirit doesn't mean it's not true. It just means that you don't understand it.

 

[jimb]

Correct, Jesus wasn’t god in the flesh, I am.

YOU are "god in the flesh"??? You are clearly deluded!!!

 

[Jimmy]

No, only Manifestations of God are Born of the substance of God.

Manifestation of God? That tells me nothing. Do the gleanings explain manifestation of God?

 

[Jimmy]

YOU are "god in the flesh"??? You are clearly deluded!!!

Im glad you don’t believe me. I wouldn’t want people to. I know that Im god in the flesh in the way other people know there not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Old Testament:
“See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. -Isaiah 65:17 NIV

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. -Isaiah 66:22 NIV

New Testament:
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. -2 Peter 3:13 NIV

Book of Revelation from an angel:
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. -Revelation 21:1 NIV

But what do you think will the new earth be like, aside from what the one verse says about righteousness?

Baha'is also believe that there will be righteousness, but he have more to say about the new earth than that, a vision of what it will be like. We believe there will be perfect unity and peace and that everyone will believe in God.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 6-7

Moreover, a new world means the end of an age, the closing of a previous religious dispensation and the opening of the next.

From: A New Heaven and a New Earth

Some Christians believe that the Book of Revelation refers to the fall of the Roman Empire or events linked to Christian persecution in the initial apostolic era of Christianity; but most modern interpretations say that the book allegorically describes the spiritual path all people walk, with its battle between good and evil and God’s promise for our redemption. Despite that prevailing opinion, some people still take the Book of Revelation literally—always a bad idea with any religious scripture, which uses symbolism and metaphor to convey inner meaning. Those “end times” believers cling to a literal theology that foretells the complete destruction of the material world and the physical death of everyone.

Baha’is believe, however, that the prophecies of the end of time allude to the end of an era, the closing of a previous religious dispensation and the opening of the next:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away… – Revelation, 21:1
In this mortal world every important matter hath an end; and every remarkable achievement a termination; none having permanent existence. For instance, consider how the important achievements of the ancient world have been totally exterminated and not a trace remaineth therefrom save the great Cause of the Kingdom of God, which hath no beginning and will have no end. At most, it is only renewed. – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 310.

This cyclical, sustainable, renewable view of religion and faith gives us hope for a better and brighter tomorrow, for a future filled with assurance and optimism:

The purpose underlying the revelation of every heavenly Book, nay, of every divinely-revealed verse, is to endue all men with righteousness and understanding, so that peace and tranquillity may be firmly established amongst them. Whatsoever instilleth assurance into the hearts of men, whatsoever exalteth their station or promoteth their contentment, is acceptable in the sight of God. – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 205.

[Baha’u’llah’s] mission is to proclaim that the ages of the infancy and of the childhood of the human race are past, that the convulsions associated with the present stage of its adolescence are slowly and painfully preparing it to attain the stage of manhood, and are heralding the approach of that Age of Ages when swords will be beaten into plowshares, when the Kingdom promised by Jesus Christ will have been established, and the peace of the planet definitely and permanently ensured. – Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. v.

 

[Trailblazer]

Manifestation of God? That tells me nothing. Do the gleanings explain manifestation of God?

Yes, Gleanings explains the nature of a manifestation of God.

"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men’s hearts."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

 

[Jimmy]

Yes, Gleanings explains the nature of a manifestation of God.

"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men’s hearts."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

Can you tell me what all this means simply?

 

[Jimmy]

Yes, Gleanings explains the nature of a manifestation of God.

"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men’s hearts."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

So they’re the voice of god himself. So they’re messengers.

 

[Jimmy]

Yes, Gleanings explains the nature of a manifestation of God.

"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men’s hearts."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

Not sure what a stainless soul in every age is.

 

[Jimmy]

Yes, Gleanings explains the nature of a manifestation of God.

"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men’s hearts."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

So this guy equates himself with Jesus. Gotcha

 

[Jimmy]

Yes, Gleanings explains the nature of a manifestation of God.

"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men’s hearts."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

This sounds like a lot of poetic gibberish

 

[Jimmy]

Yes, Gleanings explains the nature of a manifestation of God.

"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men’s hearts."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

“Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.”

Huh?

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you tell me what all this means simply?

It simply means that a manifestation of God has a twofold nature, one nature human, the other nature divine.