Jesus is not God

[YoursTrue]

No, Baha'u'llah never said that. I figured it out by reading the Bible.

The reason why some believe Jesus is God and part of a Trinity is because that is what they were taught to believe by the church.

Did Bahaullah say he was infallible?

You can believe whatever you want; I believe the Bible. You have a predetermined outcome, then select verses to "prove" your point. It's called eisegesis. It leads to all kinds of errors of interpretation. BTW, anyone can do it. Want proof? John 10:30, "The Father and I are one".

I have read the Bible many, many times, attended church for many years (including serving as a deacon), and have prayed more times than I can count. In addition, there are approximately 2.38 billion people Christians in the world, the great majority of whom believe that Jesus is divine.

Also, your interpretation of the Holy Spirit is also wrong. The Holy Spirit is also divine -- one-third of the Trinity -- and it is what makes us one with the Father and the Son. Those of us who have been "born again", i.e., have received the Holy Spirit, are God's adopted children and are a part of Christ Himself.

Those are the basic truths of Christianity, and have been so for roughly 2,000 years. If you don't accept them, then you are rejecting Christianity.

Read my "signature" below if you need further explanation.

He didn't say I and the father and the holy Spirit are three persons in one,did he?

 

[YoursTrue]

You can believe whatever you want; I believe the Bible. You have a predetermined outcome, then select verses to "prove" your point. It's called eisegesis. It leads to all kinds of errors of interpretation. BTW, anyone can do it. Want proof? John 10:30, "The Father and I are one".

I have read the Bible many, many times, attended church for many years (including serving as a deacon), and have prayed more times than I can count. In addition, there are approximately 2.38 billion people Christians in the world, the great majority of whom believe that Jesus is divine.

Also, your interpretation of the Holy Spirit is also wrong. The Holy Spirit is also divine -- one-third of the Trinity -- and it is what makes us one with the Father and the Son. Those of us who have been "born again", i.e., have received the Holy Spirit, are God's adopted children and are a part of Christ Himself.

Those are the basic truths of Christianity, and have been so for roughly 2,000 years. If you don't accept them, then you are rejecting Christianity.

Read my "signature" below if you need further explanation.

Did he say he was 1/3 of God as someone here described him in the three godpersons?

 

[YoursTrue]

You can believe whatever you want; I believe the Bible. You have a predetermined outcome, then select verses to "prove" your point. It's called eisegesis. It leads to all kinds of errors of interpretation. BTW, anyone can do it. Want proof? John 10:30, "The Father and I are one".

I have read the Bible many, many times, attended church for many years (including serving as a deacon), and have prayed more times than I can count. In addition, there are approximately 2.38 billion people Christians in the world, the great majority of whom believe that Jesus is divine.

Also, your interpretation of the Holy Spirit is also wrong. The Holy Spirit is also divine -- one-third of the Trinity -- and it is what makes us one with the Father and the Son. Those of us who have been "born again", i.e., have received the Holy Spirit, are God's adopted children and are a part of Christ Himself.

Those are the basic truths of Christianity, and have been so for roughly 2,000 years. If you don't accept them, then you are rejecting Christianity.

Read my "signature" below if you need further explanation.

Whatever...

 

[Trailblazer]

Did Bahaullah say he was infallible?

No, not in so many words.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, not in so many words.

Oh not in so many words.

 

[Trailblazer]

Want proof? John 10:30, "The Father and I are one".

That is not proof that Jesus is God.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

I have read the Bible many, many times, attended church for many years (including serving as a deacon), and have prayed more times than I can count. In addition, there are approximately 2.38 billion people Christians in the world, the great majority of whom believe that Jesus is divine.

Jesus had a human nature and a divine nature, so in that sense Jesus was divine, but Jesus was not God.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

 

[Oeste]

Forget what I said above since I explained it incorrectly.

Jesus was a man who had a human nature and a divine nature.

He is fully human. Why? Because he was borne by Mary
He is fully God. Why? Because the Father begat him.

So yes, Jesus is a man who has a both a human and Divine nature.

So Jesus was fully man, but Jesus was not fully God or God in any other way.

He is fully God because "in the beginning" he already was.

"In the beginning was the Word..."

He is also Divine because scripture tells us he is Divine:

“In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” (Col 2:9)​

If Jesus was God, He would not be a Way to God.

Do you realize how inane this sounds? Look at how God spoke to us previously:

"You make known to me the path of life..." (Psalm 16:11)​

​

"The word of God is 'a light unto [your] path'" (Psalm 119:105)​

The things you claim God can and cannot be... These are conjectures and things conjured from your mind. They are not the teachings of scripture.

Jesus's use of the definite article shows us he is THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and the only way he could be this at all is if he's GOD.

NOTHING was created by Jesus. ALL things were created by God.

If "NOTHING" is a created thing, then it was created by Jesus:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible..." (Col 1:16)

Not "some things", not a "few things", not "everything but" but "all" things.

Jesus had a part in God's works.

As @jimb has already pointed out, and as Col 1:16 points out, Jesus, as our creator, had a lot more than "a part" in our creation.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If Jesus was the Word, and the Word was with God, was God with Himself? That makes no sense.

No, the words (scripture) make perfect sense, it's your doctrine that makes it senseless.

Did you miss the tail end?? It says "...and the Word was God"! So YES, Jesus is the Word, the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God!

Your dogma tells you this must be one person talking to Himself. Scripture tells us otherwise.

God was with someone else and that person was Jesus.

In the beginning God (Jesus) created everything that was created, and He created everything ALONE and by Himself:

Isaiah 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching our the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.”

Clearly, God (Jesus) created everything, and not by proxy.

Please read Genesis Chapter 1 over again:

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,..."​

Was God talking with angels? Of course not! Verse 27 confirms this:

27 So God created mankind in his own image..."​

Absolutely NO mention of angels or anyone else but God making anything.

We learn later, at Isaiah 44:24 that God created the heavens "all alone", and it was Jesus who "created everything that was created" (Col 1:16).

Scripture cannot be broken, and no matter which way you slice and dice, Jesus is God.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That's true, but how is it related to what I said?
I said: "Whether or not I believe what others say depends upon who says it."

Does it really depend “upon who says it”, or is it if they agree with you, ie., if their pov is similar to yours?

I think that’s the choice that @YoursTrue was meaning.

(YoursTrue, if I misunderstood you, please correct me.)

Sometimes, even the most well- reasoned arguments won’t make any headway, if people aren’t open-minded, i.e., open to different / new ideas.

 

[Oeste]

Regarding Jesus, the apostle John wrote, "All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. John 1:3

That is more than having a part!

he did what was told to do

I'm not seeing Jesus was "told" to do anything of the sort. Can you cite a verse?

To the contrary, scripture tells us Jesus is simply doing what He, the Father, and the Spirit have agreed to do.

 

[YoursTrue]

Does it really depend “upon who says it”, or is it if they agree with you, ie., if their pov is similar to yours?

I think that’s the choice that @YoursTrue was meaning.

(YoursTrue, if I misunderstood you, please correct me.)

Sometimes, even the most well- reasoned arguments won’t make any headway, if people aren’t open-minded, i.e., open to different / new ideas.

True. While there are some who quote from the Bible, they don't believe it is the word of God. I hope that helps to clarify. And...the Bible speaks of false prophets as well as misleading inspired utterances.

 

[gotti]

Jesus is god if you want him to be god.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is god if you want him to be god.

Jesus is not God just because some people want Him to be God.

 

[gotti]

Jesus is not God just because some people want Him to be God.

It really depends upon how you conceive god.

Post-modern subjectivity proves us both right.

Jesus is and isn't god at the same time.

 

[Oeste]

Why do you put faith in a word that is not found in the Bible, "Trinity"?

For the same reasons we defend "theocracy", "Christology", and "eschatology". The words are not there, but the concepts are.

"Trinity" is an English word, and you will never find English words in our bible (unless it's been translated to English*). In fact, for the exact same reasons, you will not find the word "bible" in scripture either. Should we not place faith in our bible because the word is not found there?

Why are you defending a word that is not in the Bible?

Is this why you insist on throwing huge swarths of scripture away with the exception of the words of Jesus? Because "bible" is not found in our "Bible", but the word "Jesus" is??

Is it explained by Jesus 3 are one one God? No! Jesus says God is one. -Mark 12:29

God is one? Great!

Trinitarians believe the same.

Does Jesus ever say he is equal to his Father? No! Jesus says differently. -John 5:19, 30, 8:28, 14:28

“For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9)


You're "proof texts" show us that Jesus is the Son of Man. The Son of Man is a man, and he, like all men, is required to to obey his Father in the heavens. Am I correct?

Can you tell us where I've disagreed with this? Where @jimb has disagreed?? Where Trinitarians have disagreed???

We disagree not on how Jesus is Son of Man, @walt, but on how Jesus is also Son of God.

Kindly explained how Jesus, as only man, was expected to turn stones into bread, or why Satan would expect Jesus capable of tricking the Father into doing it for him. I've asked for that before and I'm still waiting for a response.

It makes no sense. It would be like Adam and Eve tricking God into giving them fruit from the Tree of Life.

I would also appreciate those 5 bible quotes where Jesus recommends we keep his words, but throw away the words of the prophets.

I would also appreciate why we would break from scripture given Jesus' statement that scripture cannot be broken.

Lastly, I would just like to point out the obvious:

Jesus is called God's Son over 50 times in the Bible.​

Jesus is called God's one and only son at John 3:16​

Jesus is called God's only begotten son at John 1:14​

After Jesus is raised from the dead, God is still his Father. John 20:17​

In heaven Jesus is at God's right hand. Mark 16:19, Romans 8:34, 1 Peter 3:22, Acts 7:55-56​

​

After Jesus ascended to heaven, what is recorded in the Bible about Jesus?​

Col 1:3; Eph 1:17; 1 Cor 11:3; Heb 9:24; 1 Tim 2:5; 1 Cor 8:6; Rev 1:1​

​

Since Jesus doesn't use the words that define the word Trinity, why are we even talking about this subject?​

Nothing you've mentioned above are "just the words of Jesus". Instead, we have your opinion of what you believe Jesus intended to say. So if you're able to come up with those 5 verses, this is going to be a non-starter for me.

*Words in red added for clarification

 

[Trailblazer]

It really depends upon how you conceive god.

Post-modern subjectivity proves us both right.

Jesus is and isn't god at the same time.

I will give you that as it is written in the scriptures of my religion that Jesus was God, yet he was also a Messenger of God.

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine.” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That is not in the New Testament, so how can it be from Jesus?

I do not believe that Isaiah 9:6 is about Jesus.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword.

Matthew 10:34-39 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Jesus did not have the government upon His shoulder.
Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's. (Matthew 22:21)

Jesus was the Son of God, not the everlasting Father.

So who is it about?

You don’t really think Jesus would be the cause of mischief in the world do you? Or could it be that he knew those who would be his followers would suffer from people who would be their enemy?

The sword would come from people who hated his followers. Jesus prophesied that his followers would be hated.

 

[jimb]

Re the OP... "Jesus is not God" is an incorrect statement. He is God. Those who think He isn't don't understand the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

So who is it about?

I believe that the following verses are about Baha'u'llah.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

I believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace and the Lord of hosts and that world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Please note that the prophecy does not say 'when' peace will be established, but where it says there shall be no end to the peace that indicates that it won't happen all at once but rather it will unfold gradually. That is exactly what is happening right now. The same is true for the government. It says that there shall be 'no end' to the government which means it will begin and be established gradually and continue to develop over time. The government will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Baha’u’llah set up a 'system of government' and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. What we now refer to as Local Spiritual assemblies (LSAs) and will eventually evolve into what will be called Houses of Justice.

 

[cataway]

I believe that the following verses are about Baha'u'llah.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

I believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace and the Lord of hosts and that world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Please note that the prophecy does not say 'when' peace will be established, but where it says there shall be no end to the peace that indicates that it won't happen all at once but rather it will unfold gradually. That is exactly what is happening right now. The same is true for the government. It says that there shall be 'no end' to the government which means it will begin and be established gradually and continue to develop over time. The government will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Baha’u’llah set up a 'system of government' and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. What we now refer to as Local Spiritual assemblies (LSAs) and will eventually evolve into what will be called Houses of Justice.

ah,, but never is Jesus called ''all mighty God '' yes there is a difference

 

[Trailblazer]

Re the OP... "Jesus is not God" is an incorrect statement. He is God. Those who think He isn't don't understand the truth.

Re the OP... "Jesus is not God" is a correct statement. He is NOT God. Those who think He is don't understand the truth.

Nothing in the Scriptures supports Jesus being God and simple Logic tells us that Jesus cannot be God.
The verses below explain why Jesus is not God, and why Jesus CANNOT be God.

Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:

John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Jesus said that God was greater than He was:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.

Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?