Jesus is not God

[cataway]

first of all you should stay out of the book Revelation .its a book written in signs / symbols . very little of it can be taken literally.
to ''see'' means to understand

 

[Eli G]

first of all you should stay out of the book Revelation .its a book written in signs / symbols . very little of it can be taken literally.
to ''see'' means to understand

I think they should stay out of the Bible. It is not for Bahais interpretation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Interesting, that according to Bahais the "clouds" are metaphorical, but the "eyes seeing" is literal ...

No, the the "eyes seeing" is not literal ... It means that everyone will recognize Baha'u'llah eventually, which is in His writings.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 246-249

reference.bahai.org

The truth is that a strictly biblical analysis is the only thing that can tell us the truth. Of course, to do that, we must accept not only part of what the Bible says, but all of it.

A biblical analysis by whom? Many people have analyzed the Bible and they do not agree as to the meaning of the verses.
Why is one analysis any better than another?

 

[Trailblazer]

first of all you should stay out of the book Revelation .its a book written in signs / symbols . very little of it can be taken literally.
to ''see'' means to understand

You are correct about all that.

 

[Eli G]

When @cataway said

no he had it wrong .coming in the clouds means its not seen ,it means not visible to the eye . but because of the things happening we would know he has returned and is present

you said

What about the verse in the Bible that says that every eye shall see Him?

Revelation 1:7 KJ21
Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.

... and

Son of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

But now you say

No, the the "eyes seeing" is not literal ... It means that everyone will recognize Baha'u'llah eventually, which is in His writings.

I think there are some inconsistences here.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think they should stay out of the Bible. It is not for Bahais interpretation.

Why should the Baha'is stay out and the Christians stay in?
The Christians are clueless as to what it means and they cannot even agree on the meanings of verses. It's laughable.

The Baha'is know what it means because Baha'u'llah unsealed the Book as per Daniel 12.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Note that Dan 12:13 says "at the end of the days.” This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end of an age, when Christ returns.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before by reading the Baha’i Writings, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased. It also means that scientific and all other kinds of knowledge will be increased, which has clearly happened since the coming of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think there are some incoherences here.

No, just some misunderstandings.

 

[Eli G]

Why should the Baha'is stay out and the Christians stay in?

Can we Christians interpret Bahais writings?

 

[cataway]

Why should the Baha'is stay out and the Christians stay in?
The Christians are clueless as to what it means and they cannot even agree on the meanings of verses. It's laughable.

The Baha'is know what it means because Baha'u'llah unsealed the Book as per Daniel 12.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Note that Dan 12:13 says "at the end of the days.” This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end of an age, when Christ returns.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before by reading the Baha’i Writings, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased. It also means that scientific and all other kinds of knowledge will be increased, which has clearly happened since the coming of Baha'u'llah.

''Note that Dan 12:13 says "at the end of the days.” This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end of an age, when Christ returns.''
when Christ returns?

 

[JerryMyers]

• I just found out on YouTube and Google Muslims don't believe Jesus was killed by the Romans.
• Someone else died in Jesus place. / Are they accusing the Bible of telling a big lie about Jesus resurrection too?
• They say Jesus is not the Son of God but a prophet, he did not rise from the dead or proclaim himself to be divine.
• I wonder if they believed Jesus is at God's right hand in heaven, like the Bible says?
• Is it true that Muslims believe Jesus is nothing more than a prophet, Just a great man?

Does anyone know anything about these subjects?

That’s correct. Muslims believe Jesus was saved by God from that humiliating death. In fact, according to the Bible, Jesus (when he reappeared to his disciples after the ‘crucifixion’) hinted to them he was not killed nor was he crucified

Accusing the Bible of telling lies? On the contrary, it’s the Early Church who mishandled the Scriptures and lied to the Christians, and over time, those lies were taken as the truth.

If you understand ‘son of God’ as God the Son, then no, Jesus is NOT the Son of God, but a great man and a prophet of God. In fact, according to the Bible, none of his disciples ever saw Jesus as God or that he claimed to be God - they all saw him as a great Rabbi and a prophet of God.

 

[Betho_br]

John 1:1, "In the beginning the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

Your translation is valid, it is the most common.

1) An analysis of Exodus 20:21: εἱστήκει δὲ ὁ λαὸς μακρόθεν Μωυσῆς δὲ εἰσῆλθεν εἰς τὸν γνόφον οὗ ἦν ὁ θεός Exodus 20:21 Septuagint (Greek Edition): Alfred Rahlfs, Robert Hanhart.

וַיַּעֲמֹ֥ד הָעָ֖ם מֵרָחֹ֑ק וּמֹשֶׁה֙ נִגַּ֣שׁ אֶל־הָֽעֲרָפֶ֔ל ֲשֶׁר־שָׁ֖ם הָאֱלֹהִֽים׃ פ Exodus 20:21 -Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (Hebrew Bible, Masoretic Text or Hebrew Old Testament), edited by K. Elliger and W. Rudolph of the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart, Fourth Corrected Edition.

The people stood afar off, but Moses came near to the thick cloud where God was. ARA Version Exodus 20:21

The interlinear of the Construction “…εἰς τὸν γνόφον οὗ ἦν ὁ θεός…” is εἰς τὸν γνόφον (inwards of the thick cloud) οὗ (where when) ἦν ὁ θεός (God was). About God's presence in the thick cloud:

Then Solomon said, "The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.¹ Surely I have built a house for you dwelling place, place for your eternal habitation. (1 Kings 8:12 NKJV) ¹ (אֶל־הָֽעֲרָפֶ֔ל, Genesis 2:11, Exodus 9:26, Numbers 21:32, 1 Samuel 3:3, 1 Samuel 9:10)

And as he said these things, a cloud came who overshadowed them; and they were afraid when they entered the cloud. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my beloved Son; listen to him.” Luke 9:34,35.

The verb ἦν in the context of Exodus 20:21 is explained by 1 Kings 8:12, acquiring an advancement of linguistic meaning from “to be” to “to dwell”, which is again in agreement with New Testament Theology regarding the Logos and with Patristic Theology concerning recent Christianity:

That is, that God was within the Anointed One, reconciling the world to himself, not counting men's sins against them, and he has entrusted to us the Logos of Reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19

Therefore, the translation of John 1:1-3, reads:

“The Logos dwelt in the beginning, and the Logos dwelt with God, and God dwelt in the Logos.
He dwelt in the beginning with God.
All the reborn were made by him, and without him nothing from what was made, was made.”

 

[walt]

That’s correct. Muslims believe Jesus was saved by God from that humiliating death. In fact, according to the Bible, Jesus (when he reappeared to his disciples after the ‘crucifixion’) hinted to them he was not killed nor was he crucified

Accusing the Bible of telling lies? On the contrary, it’s the Early Church who mishandled the Scriptures and lied to the Christians, and over time, those lies were taken as the truth.

If you understand ‘son of God’ as God the Son, then no, Jesus is NOT the Son of God, but a great man and a prophet of God. In fact, according to the Bible, none of his disciples ever saw Jesus as God or that he claimed to be God - they all saw him as a great Rabbi and a prophet of God.

Thanks for responding to my questions, Thank you for your explanation.

Could I ask you some more questions later?

 

[Trailblazer]

Can we Christians interpret Bahais writings?

Of course you can.

 

[Trailblazer]

''Note that Dan 12:13 says "at the end of the days.” This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end of an age, when Christ returns.''
when Christ returns?

Yes, and Christ has returned.

 

[Eli G]

Of course you can.

Ok.

Tell me: you say BahaUllah recognize Jesus as the only Messiah.

If BahaUllah said something that contradicts Jesus' teachings, who is lying?

 

[Eli G]

Tell me: you say BahaUllah recognize Jesus as the only Messiah.

If BahaUllah said something that contradicts Jesus' teachings, who is lying?

@Trailblazer It seems too complicated for you, so I'll put it a different way:

Suppose a Jehovah's Witness quotes to you a teaching of Jesus Christ directly from His words recorded in the Bible. At the same time, he quotes to you directly from the Bahai writings a teaching of Baha'Ullah that clearly contradicts the teaching of Jesus shown.

Which of the following is most likely to occur in your case:

1) You try to twist Jesus' words to fit the Bahais teachings
2) You try to re-interpret the Bahai teaching to fit Jesus' teaching
3) You reject the Bahai writings as contradicting the teachings of Jesus
4) You try to downplay what the Bible says, rejecting the Jesus spoken of there.
5) ... other. Explain.

 

[Eli G]

I was trying to find where @Trailblazer said Jesus was the only Messiah ... Now I am not sure if I was wrong in my wording.

What I found was this, a little different statement:

I never said that Baha'u'llah was a savior. I know better. There is only one savior, and that is Jesus Christ.

Jesus said it is finished.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Why would we need to be saved twice?

"There is only one savior, and that is Jesus Christ."

 

[cataway]

I never said that Baha'u'llah was a savior. I know better. There is only one savior, and that is Jesus Christ.

Jesus said it is finished.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Why would we need to be saved twice?

I am wondering if you know what a person is to be saved from in the first place ?

 

[Eli G]

• I just found out on YouTube and Google Muslims don't believe Jesus was killed by the Romans.
• Someone else died in Jesus place. / Are they accusing the Bible of telling a big lie about Jesus resurrection too?
• They say Jesus is not the Son of God but a prophet, he did not rise from the dead or proclaim himself to be divine.
• I wonder if they believed Jesus is at God's right hand in heaven, like the Bible says?
• Is it true that Muslims believe Jesus is nothing more than a prophet, Just a great man?

Does anyone know anything about these subjects?

I know the Baha’i religion developed from Shiite Islam in mid-19th century Iran.

Another sect developed in late 19th-century India was a Sunni sect called the Aḥmadīyah, when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, a self-proclaimed prophet, professed to be a manifestation of Muḥammad, the returned Jesus, and an incarnation of the Hindu Krishna. He taught that Jesus, after escaping death at Golgotha, fled to India, where he remained active until his death at 120.

There you have another selfproclaimed prophet, another "manifestation" ... very close to Husain Alí (known as Baha'u'lláh).

 

[walt]

That’s correct. Muslims believe Jesus was saved by God from that humiliating death. In fact, according to the Bible, Jesus (when he reappeared to his disciples after the ‘crucifixion’) hinted to them he was not killed nor was he crucified

Accusing the Bible of telling lies? On the contrary, it’s the Early Church who mishandled the Scriptures and lied to the Christians, and over time, those lies were taken as the truth.

If you understand ‘son of God’ as God the Son, then no, Jesus is NOT the Son of God, but a great man and a prophet of God. In fact, according to the Bible, none of his disciples ever saw Jesus as God or that he claimed to be God - they all saw him as a great Rabbi and a prophet of God.

Do you agree with my words in this post? Do you feel we should listen to any words of the Trinity from the Church connected to the Roman Empire in the 4th century?

Jesus is not God

So they’re the voice of god himself. So they’re messengers. Yes

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