Jesus is not God

[YoursTrue]

Like you, I see no other harmony.

When Jesus was called "Good Teacher" Jesus specifically pointed out to the ruler that only God is good.

We can have many teachers, but if only God is our good teacher, what does that tell us about Jesus?




"Good in the Supreme sense" ?

So who is our good teacher in a non-supreme sense, and where can we find more about these lesser "gradations of good" that were attached to Jesus.


Also, this brings up another problem. Not for Trinitarians of course, but for Unitarians.

The suggestion is that "Good" is on some sort of sliding scale. Eli G, another JW, gave a good example of this when he stated:



I'm not seeing where Jesus "is not good to the same degree that God, his Father, is good".

In fact, I see Jesus is exactly the same "good" because he reflects the Father perfectly:



So either Jesus is reflecting God's glory and making an EXACT representation of God's "very being", or he is not.

Our JW friends are pretty much on board saying Jesus does no such thing, and that Jesus' representation is a bit on the shaky or shady side.

So we either have a shaky Jesus, or we have apostles who speak in hyperbole when talking about Jesus, or perhaps what the JW's say is true and the fault is not Jesus, but God's, because Jesus is simply reflecting what God is generating.

Can one of our unitarian friends tell us which Jesus is really Jesus?

Is he the exact representation of God, who is good, or is he reflecting something else, that is perhaps less good?

Hello, Oeste. I'll just say what Jesus said, "So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me." ("what the Father has taught me")

 

[YoursTrue]

Bonus questions:

1. You suggest "good" has differing standards that are set by the Father. When God created everything and pronounced it "good", was it really "good" in the "supreme sense" of His standards, or was His creation a bit off? Perhaps it was "good" but only in a worldly sense?

2. If not good in a supreme or worldly sense, then in what other sense are we to judge the word "good"?

3. Could this teaching explain why both Adam, Eve, and some angels sinned? IOW, they were never really good in a Godly, supreme sense, but only good in a "worldly" (Adam and Eve) or "heavenly" (in the case of fallen angels) sense?

I am saying that Jesus learned what is good from his heavenly Father. (Adam did not do that, he relinquished that privilege.)
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me." John 8:28.

 

[Trailblazer]

So either Jesus is reflecting God's glory and making an EXACT representation of God's "very being", or he is not.

He is.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

 

[jimb]

When Jesus said there is only one True God, he was not referring to himself, of course. And when he asked someone who called him "good," he replied, "Why call ME good?" Because to me it is clear he learned all goodness from his heavenly Father and gave his Father credit for everything that he learned and knew and taught.

Why, oh why, is it so difficult for you and some others to understand this fact: for a period of time Jesus gave up His divine status and became a man. He lived that way for about 33 years, then was crucified, died and regained His divine status. Is that really so hard for you to understand???

He was God, lived and died as a man (accomplishing the forgiveness of all sin), then became God again.

It is foolish to judge His divine behavior by human standards, and equally foolish to judge His human behavior by divine standards.

It is not that hard to understand, is it?

 

[JerryMyers]

Why, oh why, is it so difficult for you and some others to understand this fact: for a period of time Jesus gave up His divine status and became a man. He lived that way for about 33 years, then was crucified, died and regained His divine status. Is that really so hard for you to understand???

He was God, lived and died as a man (accomplishing the forgiveness of all sin), then became God again.

It is foolish to judge His divine behavior by human standards, and equally foolish to judge His human behavior by divine standards.

It is not that hard to understand, is it?

Why, oh why, is it so difficult for you and some others to understand this fact: when you make bold claims and/or statements on any scriptural characters, you need to back it up with scriptural verse(s) too, else your claims are just, as you put it, of no value. Likewise, its foolish to quote 1 or 2 verses, provide no explanation whatsoever, and run around screaming 'Jesus is God'!

It is not that hard to understand, is it?

 

[Trailblazer]

He was God, lived and died as a man (accomplishing the forgiveness of all sin), then became God again.

None of that is supported by the Bible.
It is only a Christian belief, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Oeste]

So either Jesus is reflecting God's glory and making an EXACT representation of God's "very being", or he is not.

He is.

Wow! We can agree on things @Trailblazer!


He has the exact nature of the Father. If the Father is good, then Jesus is good, which means Jesus is God, since only God is good.

I see no other conclusion then what scripture tells us: Jesus is God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

Yes, he is preeminent (firstborn) over creation, and certainly not the first "created" of every creature.

Note that Jesus is called the firstborn, not the first-created. The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. The firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed leadership and any inheritance.

We see the folly of "first created" in this context just three verses down:

He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything.​

Obviously, Jesus was not first created from the dead, but he does have leadership over it.

​

​

 

[Trailblazer]

He has the exact nature of the Father. If the Father is good, then Jesus is good, which means Jesus is God, since only God is good.

I see no other conclusion then what scripture tells us: Jesus is God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

In that verse, Jesus was comparing Himself to the Father. He was saying that compared to God no none is good, including Himself.

Not only God is good. Many people are good, but compared to God no one is good, because nobody can ever be as good as God.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Sorry, I do not know the Bible well enough to discuss this intelligently.

Wow, I think I’m gonna frame this!

But yet, you know when interpretation of scripture is wrong.

I’ve shown you where the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) say the soul dies.
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/article-“internal-proofs-of-bible-authenticity”.279834/page-11#post-8703057

You don’t want to accept it, fine.

But don’t say we twist the meanings…. we’ve restored accurately what the Bible teaches, and has taught for centuries.

BTW, “spirit” & “soul”, in both Hebrew annd Greek, are two different words, with two completely different meanings.

I am sure you are not aware of this, but you are actually promoting what the vast majority of professed Christians believe : Greek pagan philosophies of the immortal soul which have infiltrated Christendom’s dogma. Christendom’s early leaders accepted such influence (to stay popular), the very ones who began killing their brothers in support of the State, disobeying Christ. “Although publicly declaring they know God, they disown Him by their works.”
Titus 1:16


IOW, If they had the truth, they would also strive to be obedient to Christ. This results in having God Spirit.

Purposely being disobedient will not bring God‘s approval. Nor any understanding. - Luke 10:21; Matthew 11:25,26.

EDIT: I don’t know why the link failed; you'll have to cut-and-paste, please.

 

[Oeste]

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Correct

He was saying that compared to God no none is good, including Himself.

No, you say that but Jesus doesn't say that at all. The truth is, we were fearfully and wonderfully made, and prior to the fall, creation was made "good". There are no flavors of good. No gradients, no scale, no degrees of good, just good. Good is a standard that originates from God, and when He pronounces something 'good' it is 'good'.

Jesus, as the Son of Man, perfectly reflects God's glory. He cannot be anything but good unless whatever he reflects is not so good.

The idea that we can be something less than good and still be good is not a notion that originates in scripture. It's a notion that originates in the world. I think my JW friends would call it a "worldly wisdom".

But let me ask you a question:

Psalm 23 tells us that the Lord is our shepherd:

The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing...​

But John 10:11 tells us he is the good shepherd:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."​

So when Psalms tells us that the Lord is our shepherd, but Jesus tells us he is our good shepherd, is Jesus telling us the Lord is not as good a shepherd as he is?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus, as the Son of Man, perfectly reflects God's glory. He cannot be anything but good unless whatever he reflects is not so good.

I am not disputing that, but since Jesus perfectly reflects God's glory that means that Jesus is not God, since a reflection of God's glory is not God.

If I look in the mirror I see a perfect reflection of myself, but I am not in the mirror. I am standing outside the mirror and my reflection is in the mirror.

 

[cataway]

I am not disputing that, but since Jesus perfectly reflects God's glory that means that Jesus is not God, since a reflection of God's glory is not God.

If I look in the mirror I see a perfect reflection of myself, but I am not in the mirror. I am standing outside the mirror and my reflection is in the mirror.

a perfect reflection ?? its kinda backwards

 

[Trailblazer]

a perfect reflection ?? its kinda backwards

Why is it backwards?

 

[cataway]

Why is it backwards?

its one of them things mirrors do . you move your right hand the image shows the left hand moving . the wired thing is why it does not flip the image over

 

[Trailblazer]

Wow, I think I’m gonna frame this!

But yet, you know when interpretation of scripture is wrong.

@Trailblazer said: Sorry, I do not know the Bible well enough to discuss this intelligently.

When I said that I was responding to THIS.

Hockeycowboy said:
Why did Adam & his descendants - up to 9 generations later - live so long? Because they were genetically closest to Adam’s pre-sin condition of perfection! And gradually, human lifespans shortened.
**The following is off-topic**
And drastically so, after the Flood. You know why? Because the Bible describes ‘waters above the earth’ as existing prior to the Flood; those waters, suspended in the Earth’s atmosphere, acted as a filter to the Sun’s rays, diluting the potency of the radiation hitting Earth’s surface.
But Jehovah used those waters for part of the Flood, effectively removing it.
This water canopy also would affect C-14 dating, prior to the Flood. And this is what we see.

Whether I know that chapter has nothing to do with whether or not I can interpret OTHER scriptures that I DO KNOW.

I’ve shown you where the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) say the soul dies.
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/article-“internal-proofs-of-bible-authenticity”.279834/page-11#post-8703057

You don’t want to accept it, fine.

I looked up all the scriptures you suggested I read in that post and they are not even remotely related to whether or not the soul dies.

Leviticus 21:11 Neither shall he go in to any dead body, nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother;

Numbers 5:2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

Numbers 6:6 All the days that he separateth himself unto the Lord he shall come at no dead body.

Numbers 6:11 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead, and shall hallow his head that same day.

Numbers 19:13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

Deuteronomy 14:1 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why do you keep citing scriptures from the Old Testament? The Old Testament was superseded by the New Testament.
Please show me where in the New Testament it says that the soul dies, and I will explain what those verses mean.

Any verses that say that we can lose our soul or that the soul will die mean that that soul will not have eternal life.
No soul can ever die because the soul is immortal.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to eternal life of the physical body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God, which is attained by knowing God and Jesus.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus did not say: And this is life eternal, that they might live forever on Earth in a physical body.
That is only a JW fantasy that is in no way supported by the Bible without completely twisting the meanings of verses.

The soul is eternal, the body perishes. That is why Jesus said:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the physical body (or any kind of body for that matter).

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life).
Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

BTW, “spirit” & “soul”, in both Hebrew annd Greek, are two different words, with two completely different meanings.

The words spirit and soul can mean different things, depending upon the CONTEXT.
Within the context of the afterlife, those words mean the same thing. A spirit is a soul that no longer has a physical body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit (soul) shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[cataway]

@Trailblazer said: Sorry, I do not know the Bible well enough to discuss this intelligently.

When I said that I was responding to THIS.

Hockeycowboy said:
Why did Adam & his descendants - up to 9 generations later - live so long? Because they were genetically closest to Adam’s pre-sin condition of perfection! And gradually, human lifespans shortened.
**The following is off-topic**
And drastically so, after the Flood. You know why? Because the Bible describes ‘waters above the earth’ as existing prior to the Flood; those waters, suspended in the Earth’s atmosphere, acted as a filter to the Sun’s rays, diluting the potency of the radiation hitting Earth’s surface.
But Jehovah used those waters for part of the Flood, effectively removing it.
This water canopy also would affect C-14 dating, prior to the Flood. And this is what we see.

Whether I know that chapter has nothing to do with whether or not I can interpret OTHER scriptures that I DO KNOW.

I looked up all the scriptures you suggested I read in that post and they are not even remotely related to whether or not the soul dies.

Leviticus 21:11 Neither shall he go in to any dead body, nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother;

Numbers 5:2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

Numbers 6:6 All the days that he separateth himself unto the Lord he shall come at no dead body.

Numbers 6:11 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead, and shall hallow his head that same day.

Numbers 19:13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

Deuteronomy 14:1 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why do you keep citing scriptures from the Old Testament? The Old Testament was superseded by the New Testament.
Please show me where in the New Testament it says that the soul dies, and I will explain what those verses mean.

Any verses that say that we can lose our soul or that the soul will die mean that that soul will not have eternal life.
No soul can ever die because the soul is immortal.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to eternal life of the physical body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God, which is attained by knowing God and Jesus.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus did not say: And this is life eternal, that they might live forever on Earth in a physical body.
That is only a JW fantasy that is in no way supported by the Bible without completely twisting the meanings of verses.

The soul is eternal, the body perishes. That is why Jesus said:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the physical body (or any kind of body for that matter).

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life).
Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

The words spirit and soul can mean different things, depending upon the CONTEXT.
Within the context of the afterlife, those words mean the same thing. A spirit is a soul that no longer has a physical body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit (soul) shall return unto God who gave it.

we will let you know when you can do interpretation of scripture

 

[Trailblazer]

we will let you know when you can do interpretation of scripture

Who gave you the authority to determine that?
Certainly not Jesus.

 

[jimb]

we will let you know when you can do interpretation of scripture

Do you have multiple personalities?

 

[cataway]

Who gave you the authority to determine that?
Certainly not Jesus.

@Trailblazer said:'' Sorry, I do not know the Bible well enough to discuss this intelligently.''

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer said:'' Sorry, I do not know the Bible well enough to discuss this intelligently.''

Don't try to use that garbage. Can't you even read?

@Trailblazer said: Sorry, I do not know the Bible well enough to discuss this intelligently.

When I said that I was responding to THIS.

Hockeycowboy said:
Why did Adam & his descendants - up to 9 generations later - live so long? Because they were genetically closest to Adam’s pre-sin condition of perfection! And gradually, human lifespans shortened.
**The following is off-topic**
And drastically so, after the Flood. You know why? Because the Bible describes ‘waters above the earth’ as existing prior to the Flood; those waters, suspended in the Earth’s atmosphere, acted as a filter to the Sun’s rays, diluting the potency of the radiation hitting Earth’s surface.
But Jehovah used those waters for part of the Flood, effectively removing it.
This water canopy also would affect C-14 dating, prior to the Flood. And this is what we see.

Whether I know that chapter has nothing to do with whether or not I can interpret OTHER scriptures that I DO KNOW.