jewish

[Colt]

No .. that's not it.
Jesus came to reform .. it wouldn't have been necessary to reform, if it weren't for sectarian divide and misbelief.

Jesus did not go to the temple, telling people to "leave Judaism".
He told the Sanhedrin where they were wrong, and natuarlly, they didn't like it.
The disciples didn't stop praying to G-d .. on the contrary, their faith was strengthened by "the King of the Jews" in their midst.

Jesus didn't come to reform or change Judaism, Jesus established the Kingdom of heaven not re-establish the Kingdom of Israel. "My Kingdom is NOT of this world". But since he liberated men from the bondage of institutionalized religion by introducing believers directly to the Father as "sons of God" without all the ritualism, man-made rules and compulsive obsessive traditionalism, his unusual religion was a threat to the establishment of Judaism. The temple (and many religions) was big business and run by big ego's. Jesus of Nazareth would have been a threat to any other rigid religion and likely killed for his teachings.

In teaching the truth he let error die on the vine. It was simply not his mission to reform Judaism.

 

[muhammad_isa]

are you sure about that? who did they pray to?

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God!"

You know what "a son of G-d" is.
A prophet or saint etc.

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
- Mark 10 -

We could each recite verses to and fro all day.
Translations and interpretations by authors are problematic.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"My Kingdom is NOT of this world"..

That's right.

The Pharisees believed in a life hereafter, but the Sadducees denied it.
..and then there was the Samaritans etc.

..his unusual religion was a threat to the establishment of Judaism..

No it wasn't. There was nothing "unusual" about it. He is/was the promised Messiah, but the Sanhedrin, who had many privileges denied his authority.
They did not want to lose their authority / gathering of wealth, in the temple.

 

[dybmh]

You know what "a son of G-d" is.
A prophet or saint etc.

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
- Mark 10 -

We could each recite verses to and fro all day.
Translations and interpretations by authors are problematic.

I'm confused. What does this have to do with whom the disciples prayed to?

 

[pearl]

The apostles' and other early followers of Jesus were Jews. Naturally, leaving their former religion they sought to demonstrate a "seamless theological transition" from Judaism to the religion of Jesus.

First mistake, I think, is to assume that Jews intended 'leaving' their religion.

In doing so they forced Jesus into OT scriptures where he was not actually there.

Yes we read Hebrew Scripture as a Christian. God has revealed himself in stages; Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus. Do we assume that God revealed the entirety of revelation through the Prophets? We do realize that the intent of the Hebrew prophets as they wrote was not Jesus. But since Scripture was the logical, only place Jesus' followers could turn for 'why Jesus' I don't see the problem.

With Jesus we were supposed to become like unspoiled children and begin anew.

I don't think Jesus foresaw the creation of a 'new' religion, but the renewal of his own.

 

[Colt]

That's right.

The Pharisees believed in a life hereafter, but the Sadducees denied it.
..and then there was the Samaritans etc.


No it wasn't. There was nothing "unusual" about it. He is/was the promised Messiah, but the Sanhedrin, who had many privileges denied his authority.
They did not want to lose their authority / gathering of wealth, in the temple.

"'I desire mercy, not sacrifice"

Judaism had adopted blood sacrifices from the Pagans as Judaism evolved. Blood sacrifice was universal among evolving religions. Man finds being forgiven difficult without exchanging something in return. The idea of God being a forgiving Father of the individual who repents and asks for it was an affront the sacrificial system of Judaism. After Jesus returned to heaven some of his followers concocted the atonement doctrine as they speculated about the meaning of the death on the cross which was a compromise for the sake of appealing to Gentiles in the Pagan world.

Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah, he was the Son of God and creator of this world who came down from heaven and lived for the most part anonymously among us. The coming of the Son or deliverer had been foreseen by seers for ages, long before the advent of Judaism. But in Judaism they developed rigid and inflexible ideas about an exclusively Jewish Messiah who would sit in Davids corrupt pollical seat and rule a material world. The world of Jesus is spiritual, the only real world.

 

[pearl]

They did not want to lose their authority / gathering of wealth, in the temple.

Jesus was caught in the crosshairs of both the Jewish establishment and the Roman occupiers.

 

[Colt]

First mistake, I think, is to assume that Jews intended 'leaving' their religion.



Yes we read Hebrew Scripture as a Christian. God has revealed himself in stages; Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus. Do we assume that God revealed the entirety of revelation through the Prophets? We do realize that the intent of the Hebrew prophets as they wrote was not Jesus. But since Scripture was the logical, only place Jesus' followers could turn for 'why Jesus' I don't see the problem.



I don't think Jesus foresaw the creation of a 'new' religion, but the renewal of his own.

Ask any Jew here, did the followers of Jesus effectively leave Judaism to follow Jesus? Is Christianity synonymous with Judaism? If the teachings of Jesus was Just a firm restatement of Judaism, then what was the problem? The jews have had 2000 years to review the whole thing and they see issues!

The followers of Jesus may not have intended to leave the Laws of Judaism but they certainly didn't follow them anymore after Jesus left. Christianity was a tiny cult inside Judaism for a long time before going West.

The Gospel of Jesus was rejected by Judaism and the Kingdom was given to other people who were more open to at least a compromised version of it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ask any Jew here, did the followers of Jesus effectively leave Judaism to follow Jesus? Is Christianity synonymous with Judaism? If the teachings of Jesus was Just a firm restatement of Judaism, then what was the problem? The jews have had 2000 years to review the whole thing and they see issues!

The followers of Jesus may not have intended to leave the Laws of Judaism but they certainly didn't follow them anymore after Jesus left. Christianity was a tiny cult inside Judaism for a long time before going West.

The Gospel of Jesus was rejected by Judaism and the Kingdom was given to other people who were more open to at least a compromised version of it.

The very first christians, who were all Jews, had no intention of leaving Judaism. Acts 21:20 "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Torah." They even continued giving sacrifices -- Paul was sent with two Nazarite Christians to help them offer their sacrifice.

However, this all changed when Paul began missionizing the non-Jews. By the second century, the church was overwhelmingly Gentile, and these gentiles did NOT keep the laws. In fact, by the second century, Christianity was actually very hostile to Judaism. It had become a new religion.

 

[pearl]

Ask any Jew here, did the followers of Jesus effectively leave Judaism to follow Jesus? Is Christianity synonymous with Judaism? If the teachings of Jesus was Just a firm restatement of Judaism, then what was the problem? The jews have had 2000 years to review the whole thing and they see issues!

Not until they were expelled from the synagogue. Jesus did not meet with Jewish expectations of the awaited messiah.

 

[Colt]

The very first christians, who were all Jews, had no intention of leaving Judaism. Acts 21:20 "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Torah." They even continued giving sacrifices -- Paul was sent with two Nazarite Christians to help them offer their sacrifice.

However, this all changed when Paul began missionizing the non-Jews. By the second century, the church was overwhelmingly Gentile, and these gentiles did NOT keep the laws. In fact, by the second century, Christianity was actually very hostile to Judaism. It had become a new religion.

Oh, well then you are a follower of Jesus? If not then what is wrong with what he taught?

 

[Colt]

Not until they were expelled from the synagogue. Jesus did not meet with Jewish expectations of the awaited messiah.

Well yea, because Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah. The Jews have very specific requirements of the Jewish Messiah. Anyone who does not fit every one of those requirements isn't the Messiah. Those in Judaism that still believe in an actual Missiah are still anticipating him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Oh, well then you are a follower of Jesus? If not then what is wrong with what he taught?

He was not the messiah.

 

[Colt]

He was not the messiah.

Other than that, was there anything else? His enemies seemed to pick lots of flaws with him? And Jesus wasn't publicly calling himself the Messiah, he chose the term "Son of Man" from the book of Enoch. When his apostles privately called him the Son of God or Christ, he told them not to tell anyone until he left. In fact the apostles revealed that common people all differed in their opinion about who Jesus was; "“Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”

And at his trumped-up trial he diplomatically said "as you say" when plied by Pilate.

Jesus knew he wasn't and could not be the Jewish Messiah, but he also realized that his followers wouldn't see him any other way! So he decided to let the Father guide him through the tangled mess!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah..

If you are going to say that, then I see no point in any further discussion.

Of course he was .. He is the "Christ", which is the same thing.
Look it up.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm confused. What does this have to do with whom the disciples prayed to?

Everything They prayed to G-d [the Father].. and not Jesus.

"Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name"

 

[dybmh]

Everything They prayed to G-d [the Father].. and not Jesus.

"Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name"

in spite of those directions on how to pray, the disciples worshiped Jesus:

 

[muhammad_isa]

in spite of those directions on how to pray, the disciples worshiped Jesus:

Some people think so..
I don't.

How would you behave if Moses was right there in front of you?
Many people would think that people were worshipping him.
The prophets CERTAINLY deserve great respect.
..but they are not G-d.

 

[Colt]

If you are going to say that, then I see no point in any further discussion.

Of course he was .. He is the "Christ", which is the same thing.
Look it up.

I don't have to look it up, it's what others called him and call him today. But the Son of Man didn't fulfill the expectations of the Jewish Messiah becuse the Jews expectations were wrong. Judaism took an old idea and made it their own. Anyone who doesn't live up to their expectations isn't the Jewish Messiah.

Clearly, Jesus left without doing the messiah thing.

 

[dybmh]

in spite of those directions on how to pray, the disciples worshiped Jesus:

Some people think so..
I don't.

Do you disregard Matthew 14:33 and Matthew 28:9? Both of those verses literally say that the disciples were worshipping Jesus.

How would you behave if Moses was right there in front of you?
Many people would think that people were worshipping him.

Show me verses supporting this, and you have a point. But I've read the Torah's accounting of Moses' life many times, and I don't recall any stories where the Jewish people could be perceived as worshipping Moses. You'll need to provide some support for this in order to convince me.

The prophets CERTAINLY deserve great respect.
..but they are not G-d.

agreed