Let's talk about Hell

[look3467]

Friend , I have not always seen eye to eye with you in the past but I believe you have excelled yourself in this post - speaking spirit to spirit ! Well done Sir !
If I may just make a point about 'connecting with God' - is it not HE who does the connecting Jas 1v18 - albeit through our faith. Would you agree ?

The enabler (Holy Spirit) is there, the problem lies in the connecting.

One can not connect where no faith in God is! Case in point: Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Mind you, this individuals faith was greater than that of Israel, thus the connection was made because of it and the benefit gotten.

The enabler is God, who enabled Jesus to perform as God, and enabled us via the Holy Spirit's indwelling, to receive the gift of life via Jesus as God through faith.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Pegg]

im sorry peg but we know back then when the OT was written round earth was not known. yes it was disovered and became more widespread around 330bc but much of the OT was already written.

thats right...yet the book of Isaiah was an 8th century bce scroll which stated the earth was round or sperical long before anyone imagined the earth to be round.

“There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers.” Isa 40:22


Or better yet, you can go back even further the to the book of Job written 1400's bce and what does it say about the shape of the earth?

Job 26:10 'He has described a circle upon the face of the waters'

You think the bible is wrong?

actually it does and the church murdered bruno for his thougts that the earth revolved around the sun. The church wanted to murder galileo for the same thought, instead he died in house arrest years later for commiting no crime at all just trying to advance science. The church hates when science proves its myths wrong.

you are doing it again.... you cannot separate the fact that a teacher of the bible can go ahead and teach his own stuff apart from the bible. You can't blame the bible, or assume the bible is wrong, for the teaching of someone who claims to teach the bible.

fact is we know how the church viewed it no matter how you want to state or phrase there ancient writtings.

i dont care how the church viewed it...im more interested in what Gods word says.

 

[outhouse]

You think the bible is wrong?

I know for a fact it is. If you can call fiction wrong.

I can easily find passages that state the earth is flat and fixed on its pillars on its foundation.

if you know the bible you also know these words can be translated both ways, but since we know at the time it was written they thought it was flat and fixed.

your circle reference is because many thought the world was a flat circle, cirlce is not a sphere.

with that said you can use your transalation however you want ill go with mine since we know in history at that time how the bible was percieved by those who created it.

 

[outhouse]

Now this thread is about hell and how the fiction evolved from grave, to the firey hell we know today.

 

[micrurus]

“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

Im not saying that this is an arguement against god, because Albert Einstein wouldn't want his words to be used for that purpose, but i cannot agree more with him on this statement. a certain god is childish and far below what I would expect any god to be.

 

[Beta]

“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

Im not saying that this is an arguement against god, because Albert Einstein wouldn't want his words to be used for that purpose, but i cannot agree more with him on this statement. a certain god is childish and far below what I would expect any god to be.

Since Albert Einstein is not man's saviour why should we care what he says ???
Why do you think our prisons are full of criminals not to mention them roaming our streets and our hospitals full of sick people if it was not for the fact they disregard the Lawgiver ?
People are not that far advanced to be able to save themselves from evil .:no:

 

[micrurus]

Since Albert Einstein is not man's saviour why should we care what he says ???
Why do you think our prisons are full of criminals not to mention them roaming our streets and our hospitals full of sick people if it was not for the fact they disregard the Lawgiver ?
People are not that far advanced to be able to save themselves from evil .:no:

maybe it is BECAUSE people are not that far advanced that those bad things happon.

Do you agree with the judgement of your lord?
if so, do you think that prople suffering from poverty an/or desease have what they deserved?
if people cannot save them selves from evil, the why does god condemm them for it?
if god already punishes people whil they are alive, than of what use is hell?
what is evil? because i have never witnessed an objective form of evil.

and finaly, do you think that people deserve eternal torment?

 

[PolyHedral]

Since Albert Einstein is not man's saviour why should we care what he says ???

Because he worked out why the sky is blue, proved that atoms exist, rewrote physics, laid down the word needed for the atom bomb, nearly invented an entirely new field of physics single-handedly, and was generally one of the most intelligent men ever? He is listened to because he almost certainly extensively thought through what he said. It doesn't matter who you are. If your view is not backed up, it is worthless.

 

[Beta]

maybe it is BECAUSE people are not that far advanced that those bad things happon.

Do you agree with the judgement of your lord?
if so, do you think that prople suffering from poverty an/or desease have what they deserved?
if people cannot save them selves from evil, the why does god condemm them for it?
if god already punishes people whil they are alive, than of what use is hell?
what is evil? because i have never witnessed an objective form of evil.
and finaly, do you think that people deserve eternal torment?

Let me start with your last sentence. Trad.christianity is very wrong when they preach eternal torment. NO MAN will be tormented for ever -you should read scripture rather than believe what you hear Mal.4v3 says sinners (unrepentant humans) will burn to ashes if they have not taken opportunity to repent of their false concepts.
Evil is anything that will hurt yourself or others.
God is not punishing anyone now !!! what they experience is the result of sin in the world either their own or those of others. It is satan the god of this present evil world (2Cor.4v4, Gal.1v4) who is the cause of all evils. The true Creator_God is not yet dealing with this world untill Christ returns. After A&E chose to obey satan (Gen.3) mankind were given 6 days (6ooo years) to experience their wrong choice Ex.20v9. When that time is up (now very soon) God will take charge Ex.20v10.
Does that explanation help ?

 

[Beta]

Because he worked out why the sky is blue, proved that atoms exist, rewrote physics, laid down the word needed for the atom bomb, nearly invented an entirely new field of physics single-handedly, and was generally one of the most intelligent men ever? He is listened to because he almost certainly extensively thought through what he said. It doesn't matter who you are. If your view is not backed up, it is worthless.

And what do physical achievements matter when it comes to eternity ???
What will it matter if you gain the wholw world and lose your life ???

 

[micrurus]

Let me start with your last sentence. Trad.christianity is very wrong when they preach eternal torment. NO MAN will be tormented for ever -you should read scripture rather than believe what you hear Mal.4v3 says sinners (unrepentant humans) will burn to ashes if they have not taken opportunity to repent of their false concepts.
Evil is anything that will hurt yourself or others.
God is not punishing anyone now !!! what they experience is the result of sin in the world either their own or those of others. It is satan the god of this present evil world (2Cor.4v4, Gal.1v4) who is the cause of all evils. The true Creator_God is not yet dealing with this world untill Christ returns. After A&E chose to obey satan (Gen.3) mankind were given 6 days (6ooo years) to experience their wrong choice Ex.20v9. When that time is up (now very soon) God will take charge Ex.20v10.
Does that explanation help ?

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal Matthew 25:46"

everlasting sounds pretty long to me.

what about all the people punished by god in the old testament?

 

[Beta]

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal Matthew 25:46"

everlasting sounds pretty long to me.

what about all the people punished by god in the old testament?

Being eternally dead is everlasting is it not ? Does not say one has to be alive. Eternally alive only applies to the righteous.
The OT era was on a physical.material/national level - not a spiritual one. They will all be resurrected physically after the thousand years Rev.20v5, Ezek.37 and learn about salvation in Christ Acts 4v12.

 

[micrurus]

Being eternally dead is everlasting is it not ? Does not say one has to be alive. Eternally alive only applies to the righteous.
The OT era was on a physical.material/national level - not a spiritual one. They will all be resurrected physically after the thousand years Rev.20v5, Ezek.37 and learn about salvation in Christ Acts 4v12.

so you have no problem that god killed more than 2 million people and was in favor for slavery and stoning people?

besides? if god thought that slavery was ok back then, he should still condome it now.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

so you have no problem that god killed more than 2 million people and was in favor for slavery and stoning people?
besides? if god thought that slavery was ok back then, he should still condome it now.

Slavery was common back then.
There were no debtor's prisons back then.
Under the Constitution of the Mosaic law if a person got in debt he could pay it off, or work to pay it off in slavery as a hired helper.
Working for another to pay off debt could at most last only seven years.
If the debt was paid off sooner his servitude would also be paid off.
If a person wanted to remain with his master of his own free will he could do that.

Since Pentecost we are not under the Constitution of the Mosaic law.
We are under Jesus 'new commandment 'of John 13vs34,35 to love as he loved. If the whole world lived by the Golden Rule what would the world be like today?

 

[Beta]

so you have no problem that god killed more than 2 million people and was in favor for slavery and stoning people?

besides? if god thought that slavery was ok back then, he should still condome it now.

People just love to bring up the OT to discredit God without understanding life as it was then. It's funny when there is anything good mentioned it has to be a mistranslation or is a believers imagination. This never happens when it has to do with bad things - that was always God's fault. The OT was a different era altogether from ours and can not be judged according to present-day understanding.
Slavery was never condoned then or today in the way people have used it. In the beginning the term slave was not applied as we understand it but referred to a 'hired servant' or someone who 'bonded 'himself to a master for his own keep so as not to starve to death. It was never intended to be misused but unscrupolous people always took advantage of less fortunate. That was not God's doing but of course he gets the blame. Remember people were given 6 days in which to do their own thing and the result is obvious evil even today.
If you want to judge and condemn God for what he does that is your business I trust he knows what he is doing.

 

[james2ko]

People just love to bring up the OT to discredit God without understanding life as it was then. It's funny when there is anything good mentioned it has to be a mistranslation or is a believers imagination. This never happens when it has to do with bad things - that was always God's fault. The OT was a different era altogether from ours and can not be judged according to present-day understanding.
Slavery was never condoned then or today in the way people have used it. In the beginning the term slave was not applied as we understand it but referred to a 'hired servant' or someone who 'bonded 'himself to a master for his own keep so as not to starve to death. It was never intended to be misused but unscrupolous people always took advantage of less fortunate. That was not God's doing but of course he gets the blame. Remember people were given 6 days in which to do their own thing and the result is obvious evil even today.
If you want to judge and condemn God for what he does that is your business I trust he knows what he is doing.

Well said amigo..

 

[micrurus]

People just love to bring up the OT to discredit God without understanding life as it was then. It's funny when there is anything good mentioned it has to be a mistranslation or is a believers imagination. This never happens when it has to do with bad things - that was always God's fault. The OT was a different era altogether from ours and can not be judged according to present-day understanding.
Slavery was never condoned then or today in the way people have used it. In the beginning the term slave was not applied as we understand it but referred to a 'hired servant' or someone who 'bonded 'himself to a master for his own keep so as not to starve to death. It was never intended to be misused but unscrupolous people always took advantage of less fortunate. That was not God's doing but of course he gets the blame. Remember people were given 6 days in which to do their own thing and the result is obvious evil even today.
If you want to judge and condemn God for what he does that is your business I trust he knows what he is doing.

i am aware of alot of translationerrors in the bible but i have enough material to discredit it taking it literaly.

if god has morals they cannot change over time because if they do, his morlals are as flawed as ours.

slavery was not onley for debter's and it was not onley for justice. your bible literaly condomes slavery in very many differen ways.

some examples.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal Matthew 25:46"
everlasting sounds pretty long to me.
what about all the people punished by god in the old testament?

Except for those of Matthew 12v32, who commit the unforgivable sin, all the rest will be part of the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.
-Acts 24v15.
Only the wicked are destroyed or annihilated forever.-Psalm 92v7.
Punished in everlasting destruction. -2nd Thess 1v9.

In Scripture a 'burial' means resurrection because it does not talk of their destruction. So by their death they paid the price for their sins.- Rom 6v7,23. But they can not resurrect oneself or another so must wait for the Messiah [Jesus] to do that for them.

The OT people will not be part of the heavenly resurrection. -Acts 2v34;
Rev 5vs9,10; 20v6, but can be part of the promise given to Abraham that all families of earth will be blessed, and all nations of earth will be blessed. Blessed with the prospect of gaining not immorality in the heavens, but blessed with the prospect of gaining everlasting life on earth as was originally offered to perfect Adam. Human perfection of a healthy sound mind and body. -Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2; Isaiah 33v24

By the end of Jesus millennial reign over earth Satan will be let loose a little while, and by then all on earth will have had the opportunity to have reached human perfection, and then as perfect humans, as Jesus did, can answer Satan's challenge as to whom they want to follow.

 

[micrurus]

SERIOUSLY? you sont see any proplems with all of this? Is this really the best that some god with infinate wisdome can do?

 

[Beta]

Well said amigo..

Thanks but you could do a better job of it james
I don't know why people are so obsessed with the OT and how things were done then.
We have been in the NT for 2000 years and they seem less concerned with that which is much nicer.
Btw , what is the female version of amigo ?