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Let's talk about Hell
- Thread starter Danny Heim
- Start date
Heaven is the carrot for Jesus 'brothers' of Matt 25v40; 1st Cor 15v50, but Earth is the carrot for the sheep-like ones of Matt 25v32.
Do you remember who Jesus said would inherit, not heaven, but inherit earth?
Psalm 37vs11,29?
Those humble meek sheep-like ones start to inherit the earth at the time of Jesus 'glory' [Matt 25v31] when there will be divine intervention into mankind's affairs. [Isaiah 11 v4; Rev 19 vs11,141,5].
The Bible hell is not the scare tactic that wolf-like clergy dressed in sheep's clothing would have one try to believe. They fleece the flock with teachings of pagan origin and not first-century Christianity. While Jesus was in hell Jesus knew he would be in a sleeping state until God resurrected him.
[Acts 2vs27,31; John 11vs11-14; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Ecc 9v5; Dan 12vs2,13]
Acts 24v15 promises a resurrection from death's deep sleep also for us.
If not to heaven, then to be part of the humble meek to inherit the earthly realm of God's kingdom under Christ.
Everyone will meet God someday and give an account of their life. God continually calls to you for you to take the time and really know him. Hell is not a sentence placed on you out anger or hate, its a choice we make by rejecting a loving and merciful God. Forget everything you think you know about God that you learned from the outside world and take the time to get to know him on your own. Call to him and he will respond somehow and reveal himself to you. He does not want any of us to perish, Hell was not meant for us. Thats why He gave us a way out of Hell and death and provided a way for us to remain with him forever through the blood of Jesus that was shed for you and me. Look for God yourself before you dismiss Him.
I agree with you friend !
And I believe that many ARE looking for him - but sadly not in the place where he can be found. Most people are side-tracked and attracted by what goes on around them , by what other people say and do, by their beliefs and practices. They don't go directly to the WORD of GOD because it is a hard way to follow Mat.7v14. So when it comes to our own choice it's the easy way out v13.
We as Christians have failed to live as Christ. That is why so many broken people are disillusioned by who they think the One true God is. We should make it easier for them to find God by reflecting his love. I'm guilty of this also. They need to understand that not all who claim to be Christians are and the ones that really are will still make mistakes too. But like you said, if the looked to the Word of God, His truth will be revealed to them.
I do have another explanation for human failure to find the one true God , and that is that at this present time GOD does the calling. Joh.15v16 seems to say so. God has his reasons and anyone looking into scripture will know them.
We are living in evil times when God is not easily conveyed to each other, when truth gets perverted while in the process of communication by the prince of the power of the air Eph.2v2, 2Cor.4v4. His influence on man will now shortly come to an end and it will then be easier for people to know God.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
Thesavorofpan,
It is not possible to explain about the theory of Hell without first pointing out a few facts about men.
When God created man from the dust, he became a soul, he was not given a soul, Gen 2:7. God told him that he would return to the dust if he ate of the tree of knowledge, Gen 2:17, 3:19.
To understand about Hell, you must first understand what death means to a human, Ecc 3:18-20. These scriptures teach that all persons are just like animals, when it comes to death. They all return to the ground from where they came, and any belief other than that is vanity, man just wants to believe that.
Consider Ecc 9:5,6,10. Here we are told that a person who has died cannot know anything, cannot feel anything. It would do no good to send a person to a hell if he did not even know that he was there.
Consider what Job contributes to our understanding. Job 14:2 tells us that when a man dies he ceases to exist, and verse 21 tells us that a man who has died knows nothing that is going on, even about his loved ones.
Two interesting verses are Ps 6:5, and 115:17. These verses tell us that there is no mention of God in death. If a person were in hell would he not mention God, for bad or worse??? If he were able would he not praize God, if in heaven??
These verses are true today just as when written, 2Tim 3:16,17.
The Christian Greek Scriptures tell us the same things. Consider Luke 12:4,5, which tells us not to fear a person who can only kill the body, but cannot do anything more, but to fear the one that can throw a person into Gehenna, which is a symbol of everlasting death. A person killed by a man can be resurrected, John 5:28,29, but a person in Gehenna is there forever, that is the reason for Jesus' warning several times, Mark 9:43-48.
A little ratiocination is also in order.
Probable the most well known scripture is John 3:16. Some religious people even call this scripture The Gospel in miniature. Notice that it says a person will be DESTROYED for not believing in Jesus, NOT TORMENTED.
Another scripture that proves beyond a doubt that the punishment for people who do not obey Jesus is everlasting death, is 2Thes 1:6-9, where we are told that the punishment is EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION, not everlasting torment.
A very good reason to believe that the conventional Hell is only the common grave of all mankind is: Jesus himself went to the conventional Hell when he was killed, Acts 2:27,31. Never would God have allowed His son to go into a place of torment for a second, because Jesus remained perfect to his Fathers commandments.
To a Christian the most important reason for not believing in a HELL is because Jesus came to earth to give his life for all who believe in him, so that they can be resurrected back to life, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15. Anyone saying that this is unnecessary, because the people were not really dead, is saying that Jesus' Ransom Sacrifice is worthless, Gal 2:21, Heb 10:28,29. People who die are out of existence, Jesus came to give his life so that they might live again,
Danny Heim
Active Member
You are right, I didn't answer your question, sorry. First off, the term "sin" is very, very relative to the individual and therefore so is the punishment. But I'll pretend that sin from the Christian point of view is punishable. So even in your mind set of a God who created me and who has laws for me to abide by, I still find that punishment of any kind does not make sense.
So when you ask "what you would deem a just punishment for rejecting forgiveness of sins". My answer is none, and that answer is based from the perspective of your religion. Because your religion says that its God is all about love. And your religion also says God gave us all free will, we can choose to follow Him or not. Now that being said, if we have free will and we choose not to follow him, then it should end there, no punishment administered because you have free will, supposedly. But it doesn't end there. The logic here is all mixed up and erroneous. One can not even talk about justice, there is none in this case and it does not even relate to the subject. You simply have a tyrant who if you do not bow down to, he leaves you no choice but to be set on fire. In short, with this scenario, "just punishment" becomes a very surreal statement and can not even be addressed.
Danny Heim
Active Member
this is for Beta also.
I am happy that there are some Christians that have at least gotten us out of eternal fire torture, my hat is tipped. I would imagine your line of thinking was bound to step forward at some point in time, at least by 2010!!
However, I'm afraid your logic, though improved, is still misguided. You see there is a thin line presented in your religion that blows your theory. The image of Jehovah is that he is all about love and the freedom of mankind. He gave us the earth to enjoy and have dominion over, right? That's a pretty good deal and I do appreciate it. But then you are saying we get this bonus as humans to go to heaven when we die and then it even gets better than life on earth. But we have to become followers of the creator, and we also have to ask for his forgiveness of our sin against him. If we don't do this, we are doomed to nothingness while the others who did join the parade get to drink of the divine forever. One gets nothing, the other gets everything. Get it?
The problem here is that your God is still a tyrant who demands to be worshipped. With your presentation of him and what he has given us, winds up being that His promise of free will is a lie and his love is conditional, the worst kind of love. Becasue the bottom line of your statement is that there is no free will, and therefore there is no love.
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no-body
Well-Known Member
But God is not just some common policeman he is judge, jury, executioner, the law maker, He is supposed to be everything. When Job asks him to explain himself his answer is "where were you when I made the world?" He sounds like a petty tyrant.
Explain to me how a death row killer that has committed the most awful sins ever repents at the last minute to Jesus and is forgiven for all while someone who has done innumerable good deeds like Ghandi will be punished just because he didn't buy into the Abrahamic God.
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Job had reached a point of being self-righteous that is why the question.
The following conversation put things in perspective for Job and us.
There is no last minute death-bed repentance mentioned in Scripture as a guarantee of a person's heart felt condition.
Please notice Romans 6v7 because there it states that the one that dies is freed or acquitted of sin. [The only exception is Matt 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6]
Being acquitted of sin does not necessarily mean innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person meaning the [sin] charges no longer stick.
Romans 6v23 is clear that death is the wages sin pays. So, with the exception of Matt 12; Heb 6, 'Death' stamps the price tag of sin as "Paid in Full".
Paid in Full does not mean that we can resurrect oneself or another so we need Jesus to do that for us, and he will. Acts 24v15 says there is going to be a resurrection. Daniel [12v2,13] likens resurrection as if being awakened from death's deep sleep on resurrection morning or Jesus millennial-long day of ruling over the earth.
Those resurrected to heavenly life to rule with Jesus[ Rev 5vs9,10] are chosen only from among his Christian followers. Mentioned as Jesus 'brothers' of Matt 25v40. The rest of the Christians along with the sleeping dead will be resurrected to everlasting life right here on earth starting with the sheep-like ones of Matt 25v32. In other words, Jesus will fulfill the promise to Abraham that all families of earth and all nations of earth will be blessed [Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18;Rev 22v2] Blessed with being part of the humble meek that will inherit, not heaven, but inherit the earth forever starting with Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.
-Psalm 37vs11,29,
Danny Heim
Active Member
Looks like you are using your free will to the full
which is your prerogative !
Have a nice day !
Ohhhoo, slipping away eh, don't blame you, it's hard to face up to. You have a nice day also.
Danny Heim
Active Member
Gee that's funny, Stalin had the same opinion of mercy...He also "thus punish those who deliberatelyt turn themselves from [Stalin]"
Danny Heim
Active Member
This is sort of like saying, "Hey, if you jut got to know Stalin, you'd see that he was a good guy, and his torture of human life was only for the good of those who followed him". When I think of it that way, your right, it's comforting. thanks a bunch
Danny Heim
Active Member
Even though it has been proven from scripture time and time again that there is no eternal torment for man in hell some people just won't have it any other way. They seem to get some personal satisfaction from such a horrendous concept.
And what satisfaction do you get from yours, Beta?
Danny Heim
Active Member
Greetings!
You might find this of interest. The later quotes are from the Baha'i scriptures:
"Bahá'u'lláh and &'Abdu'l-Bahá regard the descriptions of Heaven and Hell given in some of the older religious writings as symbolic, like the Biblical story of the Creation, and not as literally true. According to Them, Heaven is the state of perfection, and Hell that of imperfection; Heaven is harmony with God's will and with our fellows, and Hell is the want of such harmony; Heaven is the condition of spiritual life, and Hell that of spiritual death. A man may be either in Heaven or in Hell while still in the body. The joys of Heaven are spiritual joys; and the pains of Hell consist in the deprivation of these joys."
―Baha'u'llah and the New Era pp. 190-1
"When they [men] are delivered through the light of faith from the darkness of these vices, and become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment ... is to be subjected to the world of nature, to be veiled from God, to be brutal and ignorant, to fall into carnal lusts, to be absorbed in animal frailties, to be characterized with dark qualities ... these are the greatest punishments and tortures....
"...The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world ... the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world ... consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favours, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.
"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God....
"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.
"Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.
"Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world."
―Some Answered Questions, pp. 260-274 passim.
Peace,
Bruce
pretty good thinking, this makes more sense
Danny Heim
Active Member
Oh what a relief, we get to "die" in fire. Wow, that's better, I'll take that picnic over living forever in flames. You are so kind with your view Beta, thank you.