Louisiana becomes first state to require that Ten Commandments be displayed in public classrooms

[Kenny]

Absolutely not, quoting a piece of literature does not make it a legal document. What is it about this book that you have turned into a graven image that so blinds religious fundamentalists to understanding even the concept of the pluralistic society and plain English?
Is it just years of reinterpreting snippets of the book you worship to fit whatever moral standpoint that you have decided that it supports?

How does this from the Louisiana state constitution

square with this.


Is it your understanding that if someone wants something that violates the state constitution in this case, all they have to do is just write something and it will automatically override the constitution or do we live in a country of laws where we need to go through a process to amend said constitution?

Let’s see what the Supreme Court says.

 

[Kenny]

No it doesn't make it a legal document. Legal documents are enforceable.

American law was copied almost word for word from English law. English law came whole cloth form Roman Law and Roman Law was taken form the Greeks who originated it. The ten commandments is not what modern law or our legal system is based on.

can you give supportive documentation on this?

 

[Argentbear]

Were our framing fathers Christian or atheists or made up of many religions? I question the wording at this moment how it may have applied then and when Louisiana signed on. Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Deist, etc ... The 10 would satisfy these inclusively.

It doesn't matter what religion(s) they were or were not what matters is the put into constitution that there was to be no state religion

 

[Argentbear]

I agree that those documents are ultimately what matter.

The context of all the brouhaha is about posting the Ten Commandments. My position is that it has historical value. It is quoted in Supreme Court decisions and much of our laws are based on it. It isn’t pushing a religion and it isn’t being forced on anyone unless “Thou shalt not kill” is violated and then the laws based on that commandment is enforced.

It is pushing a religion and it is pushing a particular religion. There are many forms of the ten commandments there is the original from the Torah, there is a Catholic version and at least three protestant versions. The law makers of he state specifically chose one of those to be displayed and displayed in EVERY class. That is pushing a particular religious sect. And the message to students is clear either you are part of the sect or you are something less, something unwanted and something not moral.

 

[Argentbear]

It's interesting to look back through history at our gains, our losses, and on to more gains, etc. It seems an ongoing way of operation. The country lost ability to display the 10 in the classrooms about 50 years ago, after being free enough to incorporate them for over 200 years. The window these last 50 years enabled us to look through has shown the effect of their removal all across the nation. No state has yet found it prudent to get them placed back in their school systems. There has been effort, there has been movement made, but none have been able to get this done to date. Until now, so I'm watching this one and I'm very curious to see how it all plays out moving forward.

At the moment it's a historical document. but I might suggest a dissolution from the federally enforced rule, that no law should be made that respects any particular religion, if only to separate from the general rule of the colonized "states".

Why do you think there was some sort of universal classroom display before the Kentucky mandate was struck down?

 

[Balthazzar]

Why do you support them doing acts that violate their state and the national constitution?

This is not in dispute. The governor even admitted they want it to end up in the SCOTUS, and surely this is the same reason why conservatives have brought cases that could be overturned, as Roe v Wade was.

I'm asking you. You say you support them even though it's against the constitution.

Yet they can't go against their own constitution, nor the national one. They would have to work towards changing the US constitution first, then change the LA constitution next. They hope to get the SCOTUS to do another liberally crafted interpretation that allows a state to influence students with religious symbols. I hope some blue state will offset this act with a bill that forcrs schools to post Hindu, or Muslim sayings in all classrooms and let's see how enthustic far right wing Christians are about this.

Yet their aim is to get this case in front of the SCOTUS, so unless you aren't in the USA this is relevant to all of us eventually.

The tradition of impoverished areas seems to resist modernization. I'm not very familiar with the most impoverished areas of the former confederate states but I am aware there is severe needs. Many poor states need federal aid to help fund the needs of their students, and that is an obligation the federal government has to each US citizen.

Specifically, the ten commandments allude to general laws of land in the states here. If I applied them as I now understand them, they would imply general affirmations of abiding by the laws present already. If I allow these to guide my actions, I won't lie against my neighbors, I won't murder, I won't screw your wife or cheat on my own, I won't be tempted to steal anything belonging to anyone else, I'll choose to rest a day (maybe on weekends), I won't need to offer idols or anything, and these actions and guidance won't be in vain. That's what they tell me as an affirmation of applying my will to them. This suggests they are valuable to me, you, and my neighbors.

 

[SkepticThinker]

This is simply a person who decided that he loves working for the person that he worked for and basically voluntarily said, “I am working for you for life”.

Are you honestly trying to tell us that people actually volunteered to be owned by another human being for life? Do you really believe that? Would you do that?

 

[Argentbear]

It's interesting to look back through history at our gains, our losses, and on to more gains, etc. It seems an ongoing way of operation. The country lost ability to display the 10 in the classrooms about 50 years ago, after being free enough to incorporate them for over 200 years. The window these last 50 years enabled us to look through has shown the effect of their removal all across the nation. No state has yet found it prudent to get them placed back in their school systems. There has been effort, there has been movement made, but none have been able to get this done to date. Until now, so I'm watching this one and I'm very curious to see how it all plays out moving forward.

At the moment it's a historical document. but I might suggest a dissolution from the federally enforced rule, that no law should be made that respects any particular religion, if only to separate from the general rule of the colonized "states".

Why do you think there was some sort of universal classroom display before the Kentucky mandate was struck down?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

To those wondering about the cost of these posters, "Under the law, state funds will not be used to implement the mandate. The posters would be paid for through donations."
New law requires all Louisiana public school classrooms to display the Ten Commandments

I find it strange that we never have battles like this trying to get the golden rule into classrooms.

I think you understand that this stunt has nothing to do with teaching moral values. It's strictly there to indoctrinate children, which is why they chose the Ten Commandments instead and all of its mentions of the god of Abraham.

Jesus said the two greatest commandments of all are "Love your God with all your heart, and treat others as you want to be treated." It's a pretty big deal in the bible.

But as I said, it's not a big deal in Christianity. Look at what this thread is about if you want to know how much respect Christianity actually pays to that precept and how much is just lip service. This thread is about Christians doing to others what they don't like and what those Christians wouldn't like done to them.

Recriminalizing abortion violates the Golden Rule as the American right is learning as even a large swathe of Christian women want that right restored. The backlash at the polls has been significant.

And how much to you think the LGBTQ+ community like the treatment they receive at the hands of Christians? Do you think they like being marginalized and demonized, or called abominations. We've seen that on this thread already, when one poster used the words "disordered lifestyle" in reference to a transgendered poster.

And how about the way the church and its Bible describe atheists? You've seen the damage that has done to atheists in this thread as well with an article about atheists being the most despised minority in America.

So you can see why this atheistic humanist is unimpressed with the Christian rendering of the Golden Rule, which as I've previously mentioned, actually is a humanist principle. Humanists actually love all of those people that Christians demonize, and by love I don't mean a feeling, but action that protects and enables the object of one's love.

Ok, so we have enough religious freedom. This doesn't change my support for what Louisiana chose for their state.

You say that you have enough religious freedom, but you also say that you want more. You want the children of Louisiana to be indoctrinated with the words in YOUR holy book against the wishes of many of their parent. This is why I called this attitude selfish. The Christian church would spread through the government like kudzu if permitted to do so and capture America for itself and its own selfish purposes.

It is of course your right to stay in the dark and jeopardize your soul.

There is no reason to believe that sous, gods, or an afterlife are real things, but if they are - if there an afterlife with a god or race of gods that punish souls for their earthly performance, I'd say that the Christian is in greater peril than the humanist. Why? We know that the god of Abraham doesn't exist because we know that the universe wasn't created in six days and that there were no first two human beings.

So, if the afterlife and judgment scenario pans out, we have no idea who we will be judged by and by what standards, and if there's a cutoff, I want to be judged for embracing reason and empathy. The Christian will need to explain why disregarded these things and chose blind faith and bigotry over what the twin gifts of reasoning and conscience "command" us to do.

But don't worry any. There's probably no afterlife, and if there is, there's no reason to think we'll be judged or punished. Those are just threats some religions use to coerce compliance with their religious leaders' instructions.

“train up the child in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord. So what happens when it also says “4 Fathers, don’t over-correct your children or make it difficult for them to obey the commandment. Bring them up with Christian teaching in Christian discipline."

That's directed at parents (fathers, specifically). The Commandment is directed at their children.

What parent thinks they overcorrect their children? And the children are commanded to obey the Commandment regardless of how harsh or abusive their parents are.

No… it is a historical legal document.

The Ten Commandments is not a legal document, and yes (not no), it IS religious dogma: "Dogma, in its broadest sense, is any belief held unquestioningly and with undefended certainty. It may be in the form of an official system of principles or doctrines of a religion, such as Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism,[1] or Islam, as well as the positions of a philosopher or of a philosophical school, such as Stoicism." (Also, there are dogmatic political ideologies.)

And its purpose in the classrooms is to indoctrinate children into Abrahamic religion. It's about getting those first four Commandments on the wall. The kids from irreligious homes will hear about stealing, lying, murdering, etc. from their parents and teachers, but they won't hear about the god of Abraham there. They'll read about it on the wall every school day in Louisiana until the Court overturns that law or indefinitely if they uphold it, which is what Christians who don't respect the Constitution or the rights of their neighbors want.

I can’t help what people who call themselves Christian do.

Neither can I, but hopefully, somebody can. Look at what they're doing in the States.

Incidentally, I have never had to write an analogous statement about humanists including Christian humanists.

 

[SkepticThinker]

And yet it is quoted hundreds of times in Supreme Court decisions making it a legal document. Much of our legal system is based on the Ten Commandments.

Much of your legal system is based on the Ten Commandments?

Ummm, what? Not the first four. Or the one about adultery. Or the one about coveting your neighbour's manservant. Hmm, that's most of them.

By the way, who gets to explain what adultery and manservants are to all these elementary school kids who are now going to be forced to read the Ten Commandments, regardless of whether or not they even follow the religion?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I agree that those documents are ultimately what matter.

The context of all the brouhaha is about posting the Ten Commandments. My position is that it has historical value. It is quoted in Supreme Court decisions and much of our laws are based on it. It isn’t pushing a religion and it isn’t being forced on anyone unless “Thou shalt not kill” is violated and then the laws based on that commandment is enforced.

Of course it is pushing a religion (Christianity! And a very particular version, at that) and of course it is being forced on everyone in every public school.


I've got to ask, how would you feel if the Five Pillars of Islam had to be posted all over public schools everywhere?
What about the fundamental tenets of Satanism?

 

[Regiomontanus]

To those wondering about the cost of these posters, "Under the law, state funds will not be used to implement the mandate. The posters would be paid for through donations."
New law requires all Louisiana public school classrooms to display the Ten Commandments

I think you understand that this stunt has nothing to do with teaching moral values. It's strictly there to indoctrinate children, which is why they chose the Ten Commandments instead and all of its mentions of the god of Abraham.

But as I said, it's not a big deal in Christianity. Look at what this thread is about if you want to know how much respect Christianity actually pays to that precept and how much is just lip service. This thread is about Christians doing to others what they don't like and what those Christians wouldn't like done to them.

Recriminalizing abortion violates the Golden Rule as the American right is learning as even a large swathe of Christian women want that right restored. The backlash at the polls has been significant.

And how much to you think the LGBTQ+ community like the treatment they receive at the hands of Christians? Do you think they like being marginalized and demonized, or called abominations. We've seen that on this thread already, when one poster used the words "disordered lifestyle" in reference to a transgendered poster.

And how about the way the church and its Bible describe atheists? You've seen the damage that has done to atheists in this thread as well with an article about atheists being the most despised minority in America.

So you can see why this atheistic humanist is unimpressed with the Christian rendering of the Golden Rule, which as I've previously mentioned, actually is a humanist principle. Humanists actually love all of those people that Christians demonize, and by love I don't mean a feeling, but action that protects and enables the object of one's love.

You say that you have enough religious freedom, but you also say that you want more. You want the children of Louisiana to be indoctrinated with the words in YOUR holy book against the wishes of many of their parent. This is why I called this attitude selfish. The Christian church would spread through the government like kudzu if permitted to do so and capture America for itself and its own selfish purposes.

There is no reason to believe that sous, gods, or an afterlife are real things, but if they are - if there an afterlife with a god or race of gods that punish souls for their earthly performance, I'd say that the Christian is in greater peril than the humanist. Why? We know that the god of Abraham doesn't exist because we know that the universe wasn't created in six days and that there were no first two human beings.

So, if the afterlife and judgment scenario pans out, we have no idea who we will be judged by and by what standards, and if there's a cutoff, I want to be judged for embracing reason and empathy. The Christian will need to explain why disregarded these things and chose blind faith and bigotry over what the twin gifts of reasoning and conscience "command" us to do.

But don't worry any. There's probably no afterlife, and if there is, there's no reason to think we'll be judged or punished. Those are just threats some religions use to coerce compliance with their religious leaders' instructions.

That's directed at parents (fathers, specifically). The Commandment is directed at their children.

What parent thinks they overcorrect their children? And the children are commanded to obey the Commandment regardless of how harsh or abusive their parents are.

The Ten Commandments is not a legal document, and yes (not no), it IS religious dogma: "Dogma, in its broadest sense, is any belief held unquestioningly and with undefended certainty. It may be in the form of an official system of principles or doctrines of a religion, such as Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism,[1] or Islam, as well as the positions of a philosopher or of a philosophical school, such as Stoicism." (Also, there are dogmatic political ideologies.)

And its purpose in the classrooms is to indoctrinate children into Abrahamic religion. It's about getting those first four Commandments on the wall. The kids from irreligious homes will hear about stealing, lying, murdering, etc. from their parents and teachers, but they won't hear about the god of Abraham there. They'll read about it on the wall every school day in Louisiana until the Court overturns that law or indefinitely if they uphold it, which is what Christians who don't respect the Constitution or the rights of their neighbors want.

Neither can I, but hopefully, somebody can. Look at what they're doing in the States.

Incidentally, I have never had to write an analogous statement about humanists including Christian humanists.

<yawn>

 

[Kenny]

Are you honestly trying to tell us that people actually volunteered to be owned by another human being for life? Do you really believe that? Would you do that?

We do that all the time with mortgages.

But if you go back to those times… to have a secured life along with food and protection… it was quite common. We just can’t wrap our heads around that because of the life we live today that was purchased through sacrifice of our forefathers.

 

[Kenny]

Neither can I, but hopefully, somebody can. Look at what they're doing in the States.

Incidentally, I have never had to write an analogous statement about humanists including Christian humanists.

I couldn’t help but quote with a chuckle. What is scary is that you probably believe it .

 

[Balthazzar]

Why do you think there was some sort of universal classroom display before the Kentucky mandate was struck down?

I didn't suggest this. I suggested that we had displays before 50 years ago and it had never to my understanding been challenged before.

 

[Argentbear]

We do that all the time with mortgages.

On what planet?

 

[Balthazzar]

You say that you have enough religious freedom, but you also say that you want more. You want the children of Louisiana to be indoctrinated with the words in YOUR holy book against the wishes of many of their parent. This is why I called this attitude selfish. The Christian church would spread through the government like kudzu if permitted to do so and capture America for itself and its own selfish purposes.

Actually, that was not my suggestion. That was my response to that being told to me as a Christian. I suggest that we don't have enough freedom to feel comfortable in our clothes. Here's the thing, the 10 tell me that if I understand them, they will profit me. I won't steal, I won't murder, I won't lie against others, I won't desire to steal from others, I won't be a threat to my neighbors, nor my wife, that I can rest when I need to, and that I'm not required to make idols to worship. These are good things in my opinion and beneficial to me, my family, and my neighbors. I'm sure other religions have similar teachings that agree with general laws that protect us, say per chance other states decide to include everyone. Guidance being an operative term, reducing threat risk and promoting greater more cooperative relations. And if not, Louisianna has chosen their document that best reflects that states population and no one else is required to view them.

 

[SkepticThinker]

We do that all the time with mortgages.

No, we don't.

But if you go back to those times… to have a secured life along with food and protection… it was quite common. We just can’t wrap our heads around that because of the life we live today that was purchased through sacrifice of our forefathers.

That's a great argument against following ancient tribal religious teachings and posting them all over children's classrooms, as though they're somehow useful or relevant for today's society.

 

[F1fan]

As a student, I understand the need for education and while some areas of the nation do better than others, there are many variables responsible. It has already been addressed, and for several years now, the disagreement with taking the commandments out of the schools systems, one of which I can relate to personally. As a Christian, I have declared Jesus as my personal teacher. Many never do, and for me that's fine. I have, as have many others. The point is it's personal.

You can be a Christian. The state can’t endorse it. The bill violates the constitution.

The name itself one thing, the implication another. The appeal for truth and truthful interactions was his way, so with that stated and although the 10 "commandments" do not directly name Jesus, the implication is about learning something valuable...at least to some. Some apply nonsense, vain, and futile connotations to the idea that the 10 and likewise Jesus are profitable anymore to anyone who chooses to embrace them. Some of us disagree with those sentiments. This doesn't suggest that the teacher/student relationships of other households are any less valuable to them. Do they or I truly honor our teachers in vain?

The 10 Commandments are Jewish. Jesus is irrelevant. But Christians have taken many Jewish symbols, including the Old Testament and interpreted it differently.

Applied with or without religious connotations, aside from documentation of, the 10 begin with there shall be no God before me ... No God? then that's your answer. Allah? Then that's your answer. Brahma? Then that's your answer. People like me? It's still personal like that. The ideas that follow are either statements of "to be's" or matters of intent as codes of conduct being helpful in social settings.

This is my view and I'm sure other people's opinions will vary.

The 10 Commandments have no authority over those who don’t assign it significance. So of course you feel the same about Hindu lore. This is why one religious symbol can’t be posted.

 

[Balthazzar]

You can be a Christian. The state can’t endorse it. The bill violates the constitution.


The 10 Commandments are Jewish. Jesus is irrelevant. But Christians have taken many Jewish symbols, including the Old Testament and interpreted it differently.

The 10 Commandments have no authority over those who don’t assign it significance. So of course you feel the same about Hindu lore. This is why one religious symbol can’t be posted.

The State endorsed the 10 as a historical document that supports general laws of the nation and as a guide to help promote good relations within the community. The legal relevancies of abiding by them are warranted, and a way to remind us that no idols are required in that state as symbols of worship, and to help promote healthy family and community relations between community members. So, if there is no God, the laws stand, and none are required to create idols, everyone has the right to rest every week, and this will not be vain in application. This also promotes a no converting dynamic, which reminds us to allow others to honor their own upbringing if they so choose it.