Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[Gharib]

Evidence and source, please?

this also

Islam Question and Answer - Correct ruling on one who practices magic or witchcraft

 

[Gharib]

If you can't see the differences then there's no talking to you, there is no reason

what difference are you tlking about? you lost me now.

 

[Gharib]

You want to blame people who have imagination for people who are obviously unstable and have problems with reality? You want to blame people for having an idea of a Utopian world and the talent to make that dream unfold on the screen for all to enjoy because a sampling of people got depressed that it was so wonderful that they couldn't handle reality? I'd contend that if they couldn't handle reality afterwards then they probably weren't doing that well with it before the movie. No, the creators aren't at fault for people who have mental problems that would go so far as suicidal. If a movie world is enough to spur on suicidal thoughts in a person then they had problems to begin with.

yes they may have had problem, that movie just adds to it and leads to dissaster.

just like a muslim who has a weak faith, you add one more ingredient and thats all what was needed to turn them to disbelief so islam forbids things that lead to disbelief.

 

[kai]

that is irrelevant and different. the man was sentenced after evidence was gathered. i am only in support of the verdict that sorcery is punishable with death if one is found guilty.



yes i am ok with it if one is guilty. just as everyone is ok if i came to your non-ismalic country and commited a crime, your country will punish me.



that just shows that the "moden" world is infact going backwards to those ages where sorcery was OK. as i have been saying, don't judge others with your perspective. if the modern world sees sorcery as ok that doesn't it it the right view to see sorcery as ok.

The problem is that Islam cant move forward , i expect that sorcery was widely believed in 7th century Arabia it may still be the case now. In the Modern world it carries very little weight indeed. The fact that Islam Bars it to the extent of death gives it credence amongst Muslims.

 

[kai]

Once it is proven that a person is guilty of practicing magic, then he must be killed. This was proven from a group of the Sahaabah, but it is not for individuals to carry out this hadd punishment without the command of the ruler or his deputy, because carrying out the hadd punishments without the authority of the ruler may lead to mischief, and destroy any sense of security in the society, and undermine the position of the ruler

Islam Question and Answer - Correct ruling on one who practices magic or witchcraft



This means the Saudis clearly have no right to do what they are doing.

 

[Draka]

yes they may have had problem, that movie just adds to it and leads to dissaster.

just like a muslim who has a weak faith, you add one more ingredient and thats all what was needed to turn them to disbelief so islam forbids things that lead to disbelief.

So you would rather ban ideas and dreaming and creativity to keep people from dealing with reality? What? You don't what people to think? If a person has an underlying mental problem then anything could set it off. You want to prohibit thinking to keep people from dealing? You're a censorship lover aren't you?

 

[Gharib]

The problem is that Islam cant move forward , i expect that sorcery was widely believed in 7th century Arabia it may still be the case now. In the Modern world it carries very little weight indeed. The fact that Islam Bars it to the extent of death gives it credence amongst Muslims.

Kai, a non-muslim judging islam by his standards and life views is wrong. would you like the saudi government to go and kill all those that commit adultery everywhere in the world?

the laws of islam do not change over time, thats one o the reasons that makes them just. the same laws that applied to the muslims who are now dead apply to those who are living and will apply to those who will some to live someday.

if the west doesn't punish sorcery then thats their choice, jut like it is the choice of muslims to accept that sorcery is a crime.

 

[Gharib]

So you would rather ban ideas and dreaming and creativity to keep people from dealing with reality? What? You don't what people to think? If a person has an underlying mental problem then anything could set it off. You want to prohibit thinking to keep people from dealing? You're a censorship lover aren't you?

where did i say that thinking and ideas are to be banned, can you show me that.

 

[Gharib]

Once it is proven that a person is guilty of practicing magic, then he must be killed. This was proven from a group of the Sahaabah, but it is not for individuals to carry out this hadd punishment without the command of the ruler or his deputy, because carrying out the hadd punishments without the authority of the ruler may lead to mischief, and destroy any sense of security in the society, and undermine the position of the ruler

Islam Question and Answer - Correct ruling on one who practices magic or witchcraft



This means the Saudis clearly have no right to do what they are doing.

why don't they? they are a country who have implemented islamic laws.

 

[Draka]

Kai, a non-muslim judging islam by his standards and life views is wrong. would you like the saudi government to go and kill all those that commit adultery everywhere in the world?

the laws of islam do not change over time, thats one o the reasons that makes them just. the same laws that applied to the muslims who are now dead apply to those who are living and will apply to those who will some to live someday.

if the west doesn't punish sorcery then thats their choice, jut like it is the choice of muslims to accept that sorcery is a crime.

That's one of the reasons those laws are barbaric, not just. Killing people left and right for things such as sorcery or adultery and whatnot. How positively primeval. I mean seriously. What is the point in doing that? Especially with something like sorcery. There is no proof that guy did any such thing. His whole show was an entertainment show. The whole thing was most likely an elaborate act. There's not one iota of proof he could see into the future at all, because like I said, if he really could do that stuff he would have foreseen his capture and wouldn't have gone. If a person could really do most of the things people want to attribute to sorcery they'd never be caught anyway.

 

[kai]

Kai, a non-muslim judging islam by his standards and life views is wrong. would you like the saudi government to go and kill all those that commit adultery everywhere in the world?
No thats my point
the laws of islam do not change over time, thats one o the reasons that makes them just. the same laws that applied to the muslims who are now dead apply to those who are living and will apply to those who will some to live someday.
Thats my point too

if the west doesn't punish sorcery then thats their choice, jut like it is the choice of muslims to accept that sorcery is a crime.

But you dont really have a choice do you Islam says Sorcery is real so you have to accept that, you have submitted. What Islam does is Ratify Sorcery , it makes it real in the minds of Muslims. Now the real serious part is The Saudis have no right to carry out such a sentence, Theres no Caliph , no Sharia. You know it and i know it, Their Islamicaly wrong to do so:

but it is not for individuals to carry out this hadd punishment without the command of the ruler or his deputy, because carrying out the hadd punishments without the authority of the ruler may lead to mischief, and destroy any sense of security in the society, and undermine the position of the ruler

 

[Gharib]

That's one of the reasons those laws are barbaric, not just. Killing people left and right for things such as sorcery or adultery and whatnot. How positively primeval. I mean seriously. What is the point in doing that? Especially with something like sorcery. There is no proof that guy did any such thing. His whole show was an entertainment show. The whole thing was most likely an elaborate act. There's not one iota of proof he could see into the future at all, because like I said, if he really could do that stuff he would have foreseen his capture and wouldn't have gone. If a person could really do most of the things people want to attribute to sorcery they'd never be caught anyway.

the evidence is him giving futuristic advice to his audience while the camera was rolling. among other things i assume.

 

[Draka]

the evidence is him giving futuristic advice to his audience while the camera was rolling. among other things i assume.

Futuristic advice . Yeah. And what? did they wait around and see if things he said happened? Was he right? Or was he generic enough in his predictions that anything could sort of "fit" what he said? "Futuristic advice" is not "evidence" of anything than his ability to pull over a good story and make it sound right.

 

[Gharib]

Futuristic advice . Yeah. And what? did they wait around and see if things he said happened? Was he right? Or was he generic enough in his predictions that anything could sort of "fit" what he said? "Futuristic advice" is not "evidence" of anything than his ability to pull over a good story and make it sound right.

please read about islams stance on sorcery and the like.

Magic and Fortune-Telling

 

[dust1n]

I'm just going to throw this out there. I'm sure it's been covered, but I'm throwing it out there. Sorcery... is not real. It's just not real. Anything that happens from it is a scientific show-off, not a form of supernatural magic. That being said, the no one can actually do any sorcery, and though they may attempt, they still can't do it. The crime does not hold, because sorcery was not dealt. This man is going to be (much unfairly) put do death from a crime he can't physically do!

 

[kai]

I'm just going to throw this out there. I'm sure it's been covered, but I'm throwing it out there. Sorcery... is not real. It's just not real. Anything that happens from it is a scientific show-off, not a form of supernatural magic. That being said, the no one can actually do any sorcery, and though they may attempt, they still can't do it. The crime does not hold, because sorcery was not dealt. This man is going to be (much unfairly) put do death from a crime he can't physically do!

NOt so!! It doesn't matter if its real or not, its the deception that can lead to disbelief in Islam.

 

[Gharib]

No thats my point

that is my point too. a muslim is judged with the law he accepted for that particular crime when he became a muslim, doesn't matter if the iraqi governemnt punished him, or the lebaneese etc etc.

Thats my point too

well that is correct then.

But you dont really have a choice do you Islam says Sorcery is real so you have to accept that, you have submitted. What Islam does is Ratify Sorcery , it makes it real in the minds of Muslims. Now the real serious part is The Saudis have no right to carry out such a sentence, Theres no Caliph , no Sharia. You know it and i know it, Their Islamicaly wrong to do so:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "When Allah has ordained some affair in the Heaven, the angels beat with their wings in obedience to His statement, which sounds like a chain dragged over a rock." ('Ali and other sub-narrators said, "The sound reaches them.") "Until when fear is banished from their (angels) hearts, they (angels) say, 'What was it that your Lord said? They say, 'The truth; And He is the Most High, the Most Great.' (34.23) Then those who gain a hearing by stealing (i.e. devils) will hear Allah's Statement:-- 'Those who gain a hearing by stealing, (stand one over the other like this). (Sufyan, to illustrate this, spread the fingers of his right hand and placed them one over the other horizontally.) A flame may overtake and burn the eavesdropper before conveying the news to the one below him; or it may not overtake him till he has conveyed it to the one below him, who in his turn, conveys it to the one below him, and so on till they convey the news to the earth. (Or probably Sufyan said, "Till the news reaches the earth.") Then the news is inspired to a sorcerer who would add a hundred lies to it. His prophecy will prove true (as far as the heavenly news is concerned). The people will say. 'Didn't he tell us that on such-and-such a day, such-and-such a thing will happen? We have found that is true because of the true news heard from heaven." (Book #60, Hadith #223)

although that may be nonsense to you, muslims believe it. thats why don't judge us with your views.

 

[Gharib]

I'm just going to throw this out there. I'm sure it's been covered, but I'm throwing it out there. Sorcery... is not real. It's just not real. Anything that happens from it is a scientific show-off, not a form of supernatural magic. That being said, the no one can actually do any sorcery, and though they may attempt, they still can't do it. The crime does not hold, because sorcery was not dealt. This man is going to be (much unfairly) put do death from a crime he can't physically do!

he is judged upon the fact that he claimed he can tell the future, this falls under the islamic category of sorcery (depending on what he is talking about) thus the notion of sorcery, whether possible or not, is not permitted in islam

 

[Draka]

please read about islams stance on sorcery and the like.

Magic and Fortune-Telling

From that site:
sorcery, which is magic that uses
the power of evil spirits for evil purposes;

Sorcery can only be
performed with the aid of devils


There were no evil purposes here. His purposes were to entertain and make a living AND there is no proof whatsoever that he actually did sorcery by using the power of any demons. The only thing there is him using his ability to spin a good yarn. NO PROOF of sorcery yet that is what he is tried and convicted of and going to be executed for.

 

[Draka]

he is judged upon the fact that he claimed he can tell the future, this falls under the islamic category of sorcery (depending on what he is talking about) thus the notion of sorcery, whether possible or not, is not permitted in islam

Or it falls under the heading of "lying". Just because someone claims something doesn't mean it is so. Of course, if he makes his living off of telling people predictions, he is going to claim that he can tell the future. BUT, as has been pointed out numerous times, if he could actually do that he wouldn't have gone on his trip and he wouldn't have been arrested. Duh.