Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[kai]

so you believe it is just to arrest someone during Umra, someone from another nation and give him death penalthy? i am sorry, i think it is unacceptable. i don't care what this or that Imam says about sorcery. there is one truth for anyone on Earth. Saudis don't own Muslims of the world. if they really dislike existence of someone else, then they can deny his entrance into Saudi Arabia. there is nothing right or just about this situation. reflecting your disgust, fear and hatred onto others is not justice. Saudis are either sending a political message to Lubnan or they are announcing themselves as only Muslim authority on Earth. if the 2nd was the truth, that only means war and i would be more than happy to see hypocritical authorities losing power

.

Thats my over-riding point in this debate Lava , What gives the Saudis the right, no Caliph resides in Saudi Arabia as far as i know.Esalam seems to defer to Saudi law not Sharia.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Saudis are either sending a political message to Lubnan or they are announcing themselves as only Muslim authority on Earth. if the 2nd was the truth, that only means war and i would be more than happy to see hypocritical authorities losing power

Remember what I said, last year around 140 people were executed in Saudi Arabia, of whom 100 were foreign citizens. The last man to be executed for sorcery in Arabia was an Egyptian citizen, in 2007. I don't know how many of these supposed crimes were committed on Saudi soil.

I'm glad the U.S. has the power to protect its citizens abroad, and I'm sorry Egypt and Lebanon, apparently, do not.

Despite genuine efforts by King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia to reform and modernize the kingdom, the pushback from those who resist modern civilization is shocking and villainous. The horrifying case of a former television presenter from Lebanon, Ali Hussein Sibat, is just one example. Sibat is a Lebanese citizen and was the host of a call-in television show broadcast from Lebanon.

Lebanon's Daily Star newspaper, Dec. 30, 2009. The Daily Star - Opinion Articles - Ali Hussein Sibat must not be executed

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The entire article published in the Daily Star is available here: Ali Hussein Sibat Must Not Be Executed | Raja M. Kamal and Tom G. Palmer | Cato Institute: Commentary

 

[.lava]

Remember what I said, last year around 140 people were executed in Saudi Arabia, of whom 100 were foreign citizens. The last man to be executed for sorcery in Arabia was an Egyptian citizen, in 2007. I don't know how many of these supposed crimes were committed on Saudi soil.

i was not aware of this. this is a serious matter if you ask me

.

 

[Gharib]

That was not a U.S. citizen, he was not executed in Saudi Arabia but Indonesia, and he was convicted for crimes committed in Indonesia, which are also crimes in other countries -- namely, being the ringleader of a heroin smuggling operation, a very serious crime in Indonesia but also the UK, Australia, and the US. The "sorcerer" we are talking about committed no crime in Saudi Arabia, not even according to their authorities. He visited there in good faith, he was convicted for freely expressing his beliefs in his own country, where it is legal and protected as a basic human freedom.

So try again. By all means my guess could be totally wrong, please educate me: how many U.S. citizens were arrested, convicted, and executed in Saudi Arabia for a religious "crime" they committed in the U.S.? But please, this time spare me the glee which you apparently take in talking about the execution of people.

a non-muslim who commits a crime from an islamic perspective outside of these countries and is not a citizen of these countries cannot be punished be an islamic law.

but if he was to commit a crime in that country whether citizen or not, he would be punished by the laws of that country wether islamic or not. just like the american woman (i believe) that was jailed or fined in Iran for possesing alcohol.

as i said before that i do not know the level of corruption within the saudi government, but i do know that they are the puppet of the US and whether a muslim US citizen has been trialed in saudi arabia for a crime he has commited outside of saudi arabia i do not know. that is not the point i am making.

i am saying that the punishment for sorcery, wic everyone dissagrees with, is death if proven guilty.

and now that i read kai's earlier posts, i now see what he means. the saudis don't have the authority to judge other muslims that are not citizens of saudi arabia. the nation of islam lead by a caliph needs to exist in order to punish a muslim that lives anywhere in the world. since we do not have a caliph the saudis have no such authority unless somone is a saudi citizen. i didn't understand kais point about this earlier.

 

[Gharib]

Thats my over-riding point in this debate Lava , What gives the Saudis the right, no Caliph resides in Saudi Arabia as far as i know.Esalam seems to defer to Saudi law not Sharia.

i see now what you meant after re-reading your posts. yes the saudis don't have the authority to judge Ali Hussein. lebanon should beagainst his conviction and if lebanon is an islamic state and has implemented a punishment for sorcery he should be punished there, if they do not have the law implemented then no one is to harm him.

 

[Gharib]

Actually it can, if in my country it was illegal to sing and you pointed out how silly that was I could simply state that I see nothing wrong with the government catching criminals.

This law is just silly.

thats right you don't see nothing wrong, that is the point. doesn't matter what i think, i have my own oppinions yes, but i can't force them upon you or others.

 

[Sahar]

Ordained Punishment:

According to Islamic law, the penalty that awaits every sorcerer is death. The
Prophet, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam, said: 'Kill every sorcerer, for this is
the punishment ordained by Allah.' Umar ibn al-Khattab sent messages to his
viceroys in those countries under Islamic rule ordering them to kill all
sorcerers. This was later confirmed by Uthman Ibn Affan, Hafsah Bint Umar,
Abdullah Ibn Umar, and Jundub Ibn Abdullah, radhiallahu anhum.

sorcery, especially "predicting the future and giving people advice" is punishable with death in islam

Why are you confusing things?
Predicting the future is not sihr, is only some lies. The quote about the punishment talks about someone who actually practices sihr and can harm and even kill people by it.

 

[Tiapan]

I guess this is typical of a society that has been sucked into monolibristic dogmatism. It will take a few more centuries before they become civilized.
The world waits in hope.

Some call them the religious police I call them neo-gestapo because I see little difference between this regime, its religion and the German Nazi's of 1930's Europe, who also believed in special supernatural powers.

Cheers

Cheers

 

[Gharib]

Why are you confusing things?
Predicting the future is not sihr, is only some lies. The quote about the punishment talks about someone who actually practices sihr and can harm and even kill people by it.

how am i confusing things i don't understand?

but these magicians (sorcerers) of the west with that round glass ball are the same as those who actually work with the devil that is called sorcery making predictions about the unseen and thus equating ones self to Allah. are you saying those that don't work with the devil and have no actual "powers" should not be punished?

 

[Gharib]

I guess this is typical of a society that has been sucked into monolibristic dogmatism. It will take a few more centuries before they become civilized.
The world waits in hope.

Some call them the religious police I call them neo-gestapo because I see little difference between this regime, its religion and the German Nazi's of 1930's Europe, who also believed in special supernatural powers.

Cheers

Cheers

thanks for your hope in us, it is good that you are doing the same to us as we did to you for over 1000 years.

 

[Sahar]

If it can't be verified, then you don't really know for sure what you are observing.

Sure.

Fair enough, and I'm glad we're on the same page that there is a lot of fraud, but also a lot of people accidentally fooling themselves, out there. Now what about this: if you're going to convict someone of casting an evil spell or something, you have to prove they actually did it, it wasn't just fraud or imagination, and your proof should meet rigorous, scientific standards of evidence (just like proving any other crime). Do you agree with me there, as well?

I agree. And this what puzzles me, how can it be proven? (unless of course the person who practices it confess).

 

[Sahar]

how am i confusing things i don't understand?

but these magicians (sorcerers) of the west with that round glass ball are the same as those who actually work with the devil that is called sorcery making predictions about the unseen and thus equating ones self to Allah. are you saying those that don't work with the devil and have no actual "powers" should not be punished?

Noone can know the future except Allah. I am saying, this is not even sihr and the punishment that you quoted can not be applied here. But this doesn't mean there shouldn't be any kind of deterrent. Many of them fool people to take their money.

 

[Gharib]

Noone can know the future except Allah.

yes i fully agree but read the following hadith:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "When Allah has ordained some affair in the Heaven, the angels beat with their wings in obedience to His statement, which sounds like a chain dragged over a rock." ('Ali and other sub-narrators said, "The sound reaches them.") "Until when fear is banished from their (angels) hearts, they (angels) say, 'What was it that your Lord said? They say, 'The truth; And He is the Most High, the Most Great.' (34.23) Then those who gain a hearing by stealing (i.e. devils) will hear Allah's Statement:-- 'Those who gain a hearing by stealing, (stand one over the other like this). (Sufyan, to illustrate this, spread the fingers of his right hand and placed them one over the other horizontally.) A flame may overtake and burn the eavesdropper before conveying the news to the one below him; or it may not overtake him till he has conveyed it to the one below him, who in his turn, conveys it to the one below him, and so on till they convey the news to the earth. (Or probably Sufyan said, "Till the news reaches the earth.") Then the news is inspired to a sorcere who would add a hundred lies to it. His prophecy will prove true (as far as the heavenly news is concerned). The people will say. 'Didn't he tell us that on such-and-such a day, such-and-such a thing will happen? We have found that is true because of the true news heard from heaven." (Book #60, Hadith #223)

this is what might lead some people into disbelief. and if someone else who is simply lying gets a fluke, then he is the same as the above case, people might start to believe he knows the future thus a lie leads to him being equated to Allah and that is striclty condemned.

I am saying, this is not even sihr and the punishment that you quoted can not be applied here.

maybe the word sihr, which i do not understand, is different to what a sorcerer or magician is in english. what is the meaning of the word sihr?

But this doesn't mean there shouldn't be any kind of deterrent. Many of them fool people to take their money.

agreed. maybe based on the evidence, one might not have to be put to death but instead punished in some other way depending on the crime and it's severity.

 

[blackout]

You don't believe in the Sorcerer's ability,
yet you stalk, capture and murder him.

anyone you "don't believe"...
do you seek to kill them?

or perhaps, really you DO believe...
and are afraid...
of not being in CONTROL of everyone.

Tyranical murderous imbicilles.
Religious Thugs.

Invocation...

May the Sorcerer's' Power to give rise
to insanity's Self Destructive & Debilitating darkness of fear
in the hearts and minds of superstitious tyrants
increase exponentially beyond the grave.

So Be It.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree. And this what puzzles me, how can it be proven? (unless of course the person who practices it confess).

That's the other thing that has me very worried about the Saudi regime: it seems very likely to me that the Saudi religious police extract confessions from suspects using torture on a regular basis.

 

[kai]

That's the other thing that has me very worried about the Saudi regime: it seems very likely to me that the Saudi religious police extract confessions from suspects using torture on a regular basis.

There is no need to torture him its what he does for a living they can see it on TV. Remember he doesn't have to actually be able to tell the future , its exactly the same penalty if he is pretending or acting.

 

[blackout]

There is no need to torture him its what he does for a living they can see it on TV. Remember he doesn't have to actually be able to tell the future , its exactly the same penalty if he is pretending or acting.

People who act and pretend are sentenced to death?




What a fun lot they are.:sarcastic

 

[blackout]

People who act and pretend are sentenced to death?




What a fun lot they are.:sarcastic

Are their children allowed to play make believe?

What if they make believe they have a Unicorn?

Are they thrown in the dungeon with the imaginary dragon?

 

[kai]

People who act and pretend are sentenced to death?




What a fun lot they are.:sarcastic

Yep! even someone who is like David Copperfield is committing a grievous crime because a Muslim might believe he is actually doing what he does. Its inciting disbelief by allowing a Muslim to believe a man can do what only Allah could do.