Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[Sahar]

No, I don't think they do have that right.

IMO, a religious community only has the right to impose rules and codes of behaviour as long as it's voluntary... i.e. as long as people are free to leave if they disagree with them. A person is not necessarily free to leave their country, because they cannot leave unless they can find another country that will take them. Therefore, those rules and codes of behaviour cannot be assumed to be voluntarily accepted by all people living under them.

Perhaps the voluntary part could be in a secular society not an Islamic one that is ruled by Islamic political, legal, economic, etc, systems which represent the people's choice and will. So yeah, representation of people's will is a fundamental right.

A society has the right to pass laws for the protection and benefit of its people, but laws against "sorcery" do not fall into that category.

Not according to Islam.

 

[.lava]

look, sorcery is about deceiving people into thinking that you can do something humanly impossible, like telling the future for example. if this man is doing that (telling people the "future") he might get a fluke, someone might believe that he can really tell the future, that puts people off from islam.

then educate your people instead of oppressing them and keeping them ignorant so that they would know it and by doing it so you give no room to charlatans to perform their "show" and decieve people. and what would happen if i say "i'll be there tomorrow"? who decides where the border line of sorcery. talking about weather of Sunday from Friday..is that sorcery? and why is there so many deaths? why's there way too many death penalthies? if these people are products of our societies then who's to blame? how's killing solve our problems? and how on Earth some Muslims believe these people serve God instead of realizing they worship money and power and all they are doing is killing Muslims just like flies while they make great friends with enemies of God?

.

 

[Sahar]

what is this modern world that you speak of?

sorcery, especially "predicting the future and giving people advice" is punishable with death in islam and if this man was a muslim...

Evidence and source, please?

 

[Perfect Circle]

the laws of islam are not limmited to soil and water. if a muslim anywhere in the world commits a crime he has to be punished with the laws of islam, the laws that one accepts

I'll bet you any amount of money that if I converted to Islam, started practicing "sorcery" (which is a ridiculous enough notion in itself), and then subsequently went to Mecca... I would not be executed. Once again... I will bet you any amount of money on this.

Do you know why? It's because my government's military exists in force over there. We protect the Saudi government. I'll bet that political leverage trumps the precious laws of Islam...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Perhaps the voluntary part could be in a secular society not an Islamic one that is ruled by Islamic political, legal, economic, etc, systems which represent the people's choice and will. So yeah, representation of people's will is a fundamental right.

If they truly represent the people's will, then you're talking about a voluntary system. You have no right to impose a religion on someone who does not want it.

Not according to Islam.

All right: how does executing this man protect or benefit society?

 

[Sahar]

If they truly represent the people's will, then you're talking about a voluntary system. You have no right to impose a religion on someone who does not want it.

I can't impose religious beliefs on someone, sure, but he/she has no right to violate the laws of the Islamic state.

All right: how does executing this man protect or benefit society?

Until now I said nothing about execution.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can't impose religious beliefs on someone, sure, but he/she has no right to violate the laws of the Islamic state.

When you punish someone for "violating the laws of the Islamic state", you impose a religion on them.

Until now I said nothing about execution.

He's being executed under the sort of law you said was supported by Islam... but regardless, I think that for it to be illegal at all is wrong. How does making "sorcery" illegal protect or benefit society?

 

[Sahar]

When you punish someone for "violating the laws of the Islamic state", you impose a religion on them.

I won't say this. After all, the different laws that are based on certain ideologies in a given state is going to be imposed on some minority. Just like Muslims who are expected to follow the non Islamic laws in a non Islamic country.

He's being executed under the sort of law you said was supported by Islam...

What law?

but regardless, I think that for it to be illegal at all is wrong. How does making "sorcery" illegal protect or benefit society?

I am not going to repeat myself, I stated my opinion on this and I posted related links.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I won't say this. After all, the different laws that are based on certain ideologies in a given state is going to be imposed on some minority. Just like Muslims who are expected to follow the non Islamic laws in a non Islamic country.

Exactly what law in a non-Islamic country requires a Muslim to violate his beliefs?

What law?

The Saudi law that's the subject of this thread. The one that was cited when this man was arrested and convicted for "sorcery".

 

[.lava]

The Saudi law that's the subject of this thread. The one that was cited when this man was arrested and convicted for "sorcery".

yes, just like you say...Saudi Law...i personally don't know how Islamic is that

.

 

[Moonstone]

sick sick sick. poor man.

 

[Sahar]

Exactly what law in a non-Islamic country requires a Muslim to violate his beliefs?

Of course. He is being subjected to laws that are in conflict with the Islamic laws. The fact that he submits to man made laws not the laws that are based on revelation violate the Muslim beliefs.
"If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel." Qur'an

The Saudi law that's the subject of this thread. The one that was cited when this man was arrested and convicted for "sorcery".

I commented on it in my post #60.

 

[Gharib]

So under your system Harry Houdini (a famous Hungarian escape artist and magician, if you haven't heard of him) would be sentenced to death, because he makes it look like he does impossible things?

it depends on what that impossible thing is.

In Star Wars Harrison Ford is seen traveling faster than light in a space ship. He is trying to convince us he did something that is impossible. Should Harrison Ford be executed?

no he shouldn't. everyone knows that is a lie. having said that, the west is promoting lies with these movies. do you dissagree?

I know a card trick where you can pick a card out of a deck and shuffle it back in and i can find it. If i were to accept God and Muhammed as his prophet, and then do this card trick, should i be put to death?

i knew people who used to do that, they told me how to do it, that is called playing a trick. not sorcery. no death for doing that.

Sir Isaac Newton discovered a technique to find the volume of a curved object using mathematics. This technique is impossible to duplicate using physical techniques. Is Calculus magic? Should Muslims be killed for integrating curves around an axis?

look you have gotten the wrong idea about what i meant when i said maing the impossible possible. i gave you an example so i don't know how you came to think the above is what i meant?

 

[Gharib]

Killing some guy for practicing magic makes me disbelieve in Allah, therefore this situation is morally wrong.

then there is something wrong with you. do you believe your government is against you when it imprisons a criminal? do you disbelieve that your government is doing whats best for it's people if it arrests a person who commits fraud?

 

[Gharib]

Who was fooled? It's taken as a given these days that television and stage "magic" isn't real; it's spectacle for entertainment. Nobody with half a brain would've been fooled into thinking he was actually engaging in sorcery. What's next? Executing actors for "lying"?

western movies and actors all promote lying, bad habits, bad morals and bad culture.

i see the point you are making but everyone doesn't share the same views as you. so don't judge everyone else with your perspective. here is a question to you:

would you commit suicide in hope that you would be re-incarnated into on of those blue creatures from the movie avatar and live in that fairly tale blue land?

maybe you wouldn't but read this:
Fans Depressed and Coping with the Intangibility of Avatar's Pandora!


January 13th, 2010
As many of you know, Avatar is one of the greatest cinematic experiences of all-time. A new story over at The Huffington Post claims that the beautiful alien planet Pandora depicted in James Cameron's Avatar is so captivating that some audience members are becoming depressed and even suicidal when they fail to find meaning in real life after the film is over.

Whether or not these posts are for real there is reason to believe the affliction is rooted in legitimate despair.
Fans Depressed and Coping with the Intangibility of Avatar's Pandora! | MovieWeb


see what i mean? you probably think my question is stupid, but these people don't.

Doing something as ludicrous and evil as killing a man for pretending to predict the future on a TV show sure leads me away from these people's god. Does this mean we can conclude that they're not "doing things through god"?

if he isn't punished then others might suffer from his lies. someone could turn to disbelief and thus end up in hell because of him.

 

[Azakel]

no he shouldn't. everyone knows that is a lie. having said that, the west is promoting lies with these movies. do you dissagree?

What lies? It is a fictional movie, not real. Do you even know what Star Wars is?

 

[Draka]

If a Muslim loses faith in Islam because of one dude on a tv show doing predictions then I contend that their faith wasn't really there or strong enough in the first place. If all it takes is something as simple as me giving a Muslim a tarot reading to make them give up Islam, then they are a sorry excuse for a Muslim in the first place. Blaming the tv dude for another's shortcomings in their own faith is pathetic.

 

[Draka]

What lies? It is a fictional movie, not real. Do you even know what Star Wars is?

That's what I was wondering. It's called FICTION. How can one lie when the whole premise is fantasy to begin with?

 

[Father Heathen]

then there is something wrong with you. do you believe your government is against you when it imprisons a criminal? do you disbelieve that your government is doing whats best for it's people if it arrests a person who commits fraud?

You can't compare that to murdering people over silly, harmless nonsense like "sorcery". It's this sort of mindless blood lust that makes Islam unworthy of respect.

 

[Gharib]

Oh, I'm going to have fun with this.

you do that by all means. i never said we need to put our serious faces on.

I want you to remember what you said here in red.

no problem.

Hmmm, would almost make one think that he wasn't actually able to predict the future, because if he could, he most likely wouldn't go somewhere he knew he would be taken and executed. Hmmm, I guess that would mean he wasn't actually practicing sorcery huh?

as i said in an earlier post, no one is arguing whether he really could or could not predict the future.

he was practicing sorcery, but just because he wasn't any good and knew he was lying then thats not the laws problem. like i said, if i killed someone AND THEN felt sorry and repented will that be of any concern to the law?

But, I thought you were just supporting his sentence of execution because that's what sorcery calls for weren't you? You were calling other people ignorant for not seeing that this was "right" within Islam. yet here you are admitting that he wsn't practicing sorcery, he was lying, and Islam "discourages" lying. Do they "discourage" by executing? Does Islam call for the death penalty for lying?

you have missinterpreted my statement. here is the above again:
"he was practicing sorcery, but just because he wasn't any good and knew he was lying then thats not the laws problem."

To the first part: Then why aren't these wonderful "religious police" out arresting people in other countries? If Islam has no borders then why do the "religious police" have borders?

thats because saudi arabia does not rule any other country appart from saudi arabia. having said that, if a muslim does something that is punishable by the islamic law not taking into account where he did it, then he goes to saudi arabia (or another country that has implemented that islamic law for that particular crime/sin) he can get punished if the saudi authorities have evidence against him.

To the second part: I thought we had established he wasn't practicing sorcery. You, yourself, said he was lying. And Islam "discourages" lying. Or, were you lying about him lying? Be careful, because Islam "discourages" lying and, it seems, Islam has the death penalty to "discourage" it with.

no you must understand that islam does not punish a liar who simply lies about something personal or similar to it with death depending on what the whole thing is about. so his "whole thing" about lying was that he could tell the future, and as evidnce suggests he was telling his audience the "future" thus it is not the lying about predicting the future he is being punished for, but by making people believe he really can by actually saying this and that will happen
does that make any sense to you?

Hmm, sounds flimsy to me. If it's policy to execute people who do things which lead to disbelief in Islam then I guess executing people of all religions besides Islam is the right thing to do. Wait, isn't that what terrorists seem to want to do? Doesn't seem like a far reach from your mindset to that of a terrorist's.

so now i'm a terrorist at your expense of ignorance.
now i'm going to have fun. where did i say that any form of action that leads to disbelief is wrong and that everyone who does that should be killed?