More Cops Assassinated

[Sees]

Do you guys ever feel like the idolization of police officers (and people in the military) blinds us to some of the ills that very obviously exist in their respective cultures?

Some do...a whole lot look down on both though. In the Marine Corps I had protestors at the base gate spitting at me and shouting profanities and in law enforcement we get "racist this, racist that" on a regular basis. No matter how you do those jobs, some just won't like what you represent.

 

[Revoltingest]

Some do...a whole lot look down on both though. In the Marine Corps I had protestors at the base gate spitting at me and shouting profanities and in law enforcement we get "racist this, racist that" on a regular basis. No matter how you do those jobs, some just won't like what you represent.

Marines......that's like the Army, but easier....right?

 

[Sees]

Marines......that's like the Army, but easier....right?

Only time it is easier is when enemy combatants realize you are U.S. Marines and tuck tail.

 

[Revoltingest]

Only time it is easier is when enemy combatants realize you are U.S. Marines and tuck tail.

Dang.....so much for my attempt to provoke a jar head.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Some do...a whole lot look down on both though. In the Marine Corps I had protestors at the base gate spitting at me and shouting profanities and in law enforcement we get "racist this, racist that" on a regular basis. No matter how you do those jobs, some just won't like what you represent.

I'll agree with that.
I think it has a lot to do with what side of the fence you're on when you're observing.

I have quite a few friends who served in Iraq or Afghanistan during the first half of the campaign. Their experiences with Middle Eastern culture varied greatly from mine, despite the fact that we were in those countries at basically the same time. I was simply living there among the people as a civilian, while they couldn't walk around anywhere without representing something that had negative overtones to lots of folks. They covered themselves from head-to-toe in symbolism. I was just some dude in a sarang (most of the time)... We have disagreements all the time about what life is like out there because our personal experiences, which are all valid, are almost nothing alike.

The same is true of most populations, depending on personal (and impersonal) History with the symbols of roles of the "occupying force". For inner-city kids who have been brought up with a long history of even perceived injustice, the response to a police uniform isn't going to be good, on the whole. And if that's your beat, for example, as a cop, I can also see how that would impact your feelings towards the populations that you're made to service. It could make even the most positive person become jaded after a while, I think.

But that still doesn't excuse the abuse of power, when it occurs, right?

A marginalized population already knows that they're marginalized - being constantly reminded of it does nothing to solve the root of their angst. Whether you're a citizen of an occupied territory, a kid whose older brother's friend's friend once got beat up by some good-ol'-boy Po-Po for going 10 over the speed limit, or a member of a police force that is greatly outnumbered by the populations that they're serving, the only way to ease any of those tensions is through personal immersion and cross-cultural interaction.

 

[Underhill]

"Anti gun leftist are pro gun too"
????

Can't count the number of times I've been labeled as anti gun just because I am in favor of some regulation of firearms. I own 6 guns. Enjoy shooting them. Don't really want them taken away. In fact I would say the number one reason I am in favor of some regulation is that I don't want them taken away.

But that can make me anti-gun or pro-gun depending on who I am talking to.

 

[Underhill]

Some do...a whole lot look down on both though. In the Marine Corps I had protestors at the base gate spitting at me and shouting profanities and in law enforcement we get "racist this, racist that" on a regular basis. No matter how you do those jobs, some just won't like what you represent.

There are idiots on both sides of the issue. More on the reform side than not obviously. (I would certainly hope there are more level headed and reasonable police, as a percentage of population, than the general populace.)

But I think a lot of the problem in the media is in who represents the officers. I've heard discussion several times on various stations where they trot out a Union Rep for the police as their expert, and of course this guy is trained to never say a bad word about the officers he represents. What are they thinking?

Admit there at least might be a problem we need to work on and actually work on it. Deny everything doesn't work with the sheer volume of headlines (not to mention videos) we've seen lately.

 

[Revoltingest]

Can't count the number of times I've been labeled as anti gun just because I am in favor of some regulation of firearms. I own 6 guns. Enjoy shooting them. Don't really want them taken away. In fact I would say the number one reason I am in favor of some regulation is that I don't want them taken away. But that can make me anti-gun or pro-gun depending on who I am talking to.

Now I'm confused with a much better understanding.

 

[metis]

If I say "Police Lives Matter", is that "divisive"? If not, then supposedly how is it that Black Lives Matter is divisive? I've heard and read so many who have no problem with saying the former but then have a problem when supporters of Black Lives Matter say the latter.

 

[Cassandra]

It is sad for the victims

I think it is a logical outcome of an ever growing polarization. The social fabric of society is deteriorating, competition is getting harder, and the ability to reach consensus is fading. Politicians are leading the way. Starting ever more extremist rants, they educate people in the same way.

There seems to be a strong conviction among a majority in the US that every social problem is really a law and order problem and should be resolved with policing and ultimately military force. The police are the garbage collectors of society and not to be envied. The more aggression they meet the less time they have for social relieve. Militarizing the police further will turn the streets into battlefields.

But then American culture is all about battle. Americans are pretty much hooked on aggression. American movies are an orgasm of violence. So behind all the moral talk meant to feel "the good guy", they are really getting what they want. So is it a problem? No it is America.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Since 1791, there have been 20,789 police officers killed in the line of duty.

Since 1976, roughly 14,000 people have been killed by police officers.

Since 2005, 13 officers have been convicted of murder or manslaughter charges.

• http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer...ta/year.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States
• "In fact, since 2005, there have only been 13 officers convicted of murder or manslaughter in fatal on-duty shootings, according to data provided to The Huffington Post by Philip Stinson, an associate professor of criminology at Ohio’s Bowling Green State University. Stinson’s data doesn’t include cases in which civilians died in police custody or were killed by other means, or those in which officers only faced lesser charges."

I tired to find data that matched closer years per cop-convictions, but I gave up.
There's a reason that people get upset over all of this. And I'm completely avoiding racial divides, which would add all kinds of other dynamics to the problem.

 

[metis]

It is sad for the victims

I think it is a logical outcome of an ever growing polarization. The social fabric of society is deteriorating, competition is getting harder, and the inability to reach consensus is fading. Politicians are leading the way. Starting ever more extremist rants, they educate people in the same way.

There seems to be a strong conviction among a majority in the US that every social problem is really a law and order problem and should be resolved with policing and ultimately military force. The police are the garbage collectors of society and not to be envied. The more aggression they meet the less time they have for social relieve. Militarizing the police further will turn the streets into battlefields.

But then American culture is all about battle. Americans are pretty much hooked on aggression. American movies are an orgasm of violence. So behind all the moral talk meant to feel "the good guy", they are really getting what they want. So is it a problem? No it is America.

I wish you were wrong.

We used to be praised as a nation of pragmatists, but we have now become a nation of ideologues with much less of a willingness to compromise or even attempting to use any empathy. IOW, we've become a "my way or the highway" society, and our congress is just a microcosm of this.

 

[Underhill]

Now I'm confused with a much better understanding.

I know how you feel.

 

[Underhill]

It is sad for the victims

I think it is a logical outcome of an ever growing polarization. The social fabric of society is deteriorating, competition is getting harder, and the inability to reach consensus is fading. Politicians are leading the way. Starting ever more extremist rants, they educate people in the same way.

There seems to be a strong conviction among a majority in the US that every social problem is really a law and order problem and should be resolved with policing and ultimately military force. The police are the garbage collectors of society and not to be envied. The more aggression they meet the less time they have for social relieve. Militarizing the police further will turn the streets into battlefields.

But then American culture is all about battle. Americans are pretty much hooked on aggression. American movies are an orgasm of violence. So behind all the moral talk meant to feel "the good guy", they are really getting what they want. So is it a problem? No it is America.

Lilly livered son of a wood pecker... Them's fighting words!

 

[Underhill]

I wish you were wrong.

We used to be praised as a nation of pragmatists, but we have now become a nation of ideologues with much less of a willingness to compromise or even attempting to use any empathy. IOW, we've become a "my way or the highway" society, and our congress is just a microcosm of this.

I blame the internet. It has given voice to the loons. And the loons with a voice create more loons. I suspect it is much the same in the middle east with ISIS. People who used to be ignored or locked away, are now hosting online talk shows and have their own youtube channel.

We need to go back to the days of the asylums, and when everyone had a voice but only so long as they didn't bother their neighbors.

No, I don't know how to do it. I readily admit to being flummoxed when it comes to finding solutions to the problem.

 

[Debater Slayer]

There are definitely some who are into that sorta stuff, I think it is a much smaller margin. The passion for it isn't near the same. In the U.S. there are tons of folks who fit into the right/conservative category who aren't white Bible-thumpers - aka the prototypical religious right.

The majority of black folks I know who are out of poverty would qualify as right/conservative...and they are perhaps the most dismissive of BLM than any others I've talked to.

Interesting. Thanks for the info!

 

[Debater Slayer]

It reflects differences in their understanding of equality. The right will say people are equal if they are equal before the law or have equal opportunity within a free market. Whereas the left is more prone to argue that people should have equal results and that the market is a highly discriminatory institution which protects and enforces racism as a cultural value.
The right would say "equality of outcome" is necessarily coercive because people are naturally unequal in terms of talents (and therefore the rewards will be unequal) and that "affirmative action" or positive discrimination is a reverse form of racism against whites by giving minorities an unfair advantage. the left meanwhile will say that these inequalities are the result of coercion and historic injustices which the right are perpetuating.

Both sides will claim victim good and persecution to a degree because of the ideologies (so it's best to look at the evidence and statitics and see what stacks up).

It's a ideological confrontation and the respective positions affects if you recognise a problem exists and what solutions you may be willing to use. It's part of the "Culture War" in the USA. My impression is that the evidence supports the view that a problem regarding race continues to exist but solutions are very difficult to find because of the effects of the polarisation makes it difficult to deal with the problem on top of the fact "racism" is a complicated, institutional and nebulous issue.

I think there are far more issues than what you mentioned, though. Interesting perspective nonetheless.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you guys ever feel like the idolization of police officers (and people in the military) blinds us to some of the ills that very obviously exist in their respective cultures?

I throw up in my mouth a little when I see people glorifying "Iraq and Afghanistan veterans" who took part in killing civilians there to "defend American freedoms." I like to refer to those as "lowlifes in uniform"—state-supported murderers, basically.

(I'm only talking about American soldiers who killed civilians, not all of them. I know there are many good ones.)

 

[Revoltingest]

I throw up in my mouth a little......

Now there is a disturbing image!
Ew.

 

[George-ananda]

If I say "Police Lives Matter", is that "divisive"?

No. These are people putting themselves in harm's way for the protection of us all. (Much like military personnel.)

If not, then supposedly how is it that Black Lives Matter is divisive?

Because it is implying police don't care that much about black lives now; which is total over-reactive inflammatory crap.