Mueller indicts 13 Russian nationals over 2016 election interference

[Shad]

So the people already nabbed in the Trump campaign were innocent?

I already answered that. Follow the comment chain...

The only people denying evidence 24/7 are RW talking heads and Trump himself.

Another strawman merely setup as a put down. Congratulations... Now point out where I said any such thing...

The FBI doesn't just start investigations without evidence. Carry on.

You are speculating that said evidence is of Trump Russian collusion, nothing more.

 

[Falvlun]

I agree. "Discord" and "discourse" were the words used. Both was meant to incite division in the electoral process. Nothing "for" or "against" a particular candidate. It was a broad brush painting the picture, yet the ones with tunnel vision are only going to see the part(s) they want to see.

This is false. I already quoted some of the indictments that specifically indicate that the Russian campaign was primarily directed at helping Trump and hurting Clinton.

Again, page 17 of the indictment:

43. By 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used their fictitious online personas to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election. They engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump.
a. On or about February 10, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators internally circulated an outline of themes for future content to be posted to ORGANIZATION-controlled social media accounts. Specialists were instructed to post content that focused on “politics in the USA” and to “use any opportunity to criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump—we support them).”
b. On or about September 14, 2016, in an internal review of an ORGANIZATION- created and controlled Facebook group called “Secured Borders,” the account specialist was criticized for having a “low number of posts dedicated to criticizing Hillary Clinton” and was told “it is imperative to intensify criticizing Hillary Clinton” in future posts.

 

[Falvlun]

Thats a misrepresentation of what I said.

I said: IF there was evidence he would be impeached already.

And, as I indicated, that’s a nonsensical assumption, both due to the politics of impeachment and due to the fact that the investigation is not over yet, so we can’t know what evidence Mueller does or does not have.

Nope, but still I am glad Hillary is not in office.

Then what did you mean by “the Russians didn’t want to see Hillary in power” and that you couldn’t blame them since she was “crooked”?

At the very least, you are cheering on a foreign government influencing our election because it happens to align with your political preferences. I wonder if you would have allowed Democrats to say the same if Russians helped get Hilary elected.

I also like how you and every other conservative can casually accuse Clinton of being “crooked”, with no evidence or indictment or trial, despite years of relentless investigation; but will howl about “innocent until proven guilty” and “no evidence!” when it comes to Trump.

 

[Enoch07]

And, as I indicated, that’s a nonsensical assumption, both due to the politics of impeachment and due to the fact that the investigation is not over yet, so we can’t know what evidence Mueller does or does not have.

I would guess no evidence.

Then what did you mean by “the Russians didn’t want to see Hillary in power” and that you couldn’t blame them since she was “crooked”?

Because Hillary would have been a terrible president. I can't blame them, she is crooked. I underlined the relevant meaning.

crook·ed
ˈkro͝okəd/
adjective
adjective: crooked; comparative adjective: crookeder; superlative adjective: crookedest

1. 1.
   bent or twisted out of shape or out of place.
   "his teeth were yellow and crooked"
   synonyms: bent, twisted, misshapen, deformed, malformed, contorted, out of shape, wry, warped, bowed, distorted
   "a crooked spine"
2. 2.
   informal
   dishonest or illegal.
   "a crooked business deal"
   synonyms: dishonest, unscrupulous, unprincipled, untrustworthy, corrupt, corruptible, venal; More
   criminal, illegal, unlawful, nefarious, fraudulent;
   informalshady, dodgy, hinky
   "a crooked cop"

At the very least, you are cheering on a foreign government influencing our election because it happens to align with your political preferences.

Who said anything about cheering them on. Lockem up and throw away the key!

I also like how you and every other conservative can casually accuse Clinton of being “crooked”, with no evidence or indictment or trial, despite years of relentless investigation; but will howl about “innocent until proven guilty” and “no evidence!” when it comes to Trump.

It's just an opinion. Everyone has them.

 

[Falvlun]

I would guess no evidence.

You would guess “no evidence” without evidence to back that opinion up. Gotcha.

Because Hillary would have been a terrible president. I can't blame them, she is crooked. I underlined the relevant meaning.

crook·ed
ˈkro͝okəd/
adjective
adjective: crooked; comparative adjective: crookeder; superlative adjective: crookedest

1. 1.
   bent or twisted out of shape or out of place.
   "his teeth were yellow and crooked"
   synonyms: bent, twisted, misshapen, deformed, malformed, contorted, out of shape, wry, warped, bowed, distorted
   "a crooked spine"
2. 2.
   informal
   dishonest or illegal.
   "a crooked business deal"
   synonyms: dishonest, unscrupulous, unprincipled, untrustworthy, corrupt, corruptible, venal; More
   criminal, illegal, unlawful, nefarious, fraudulent;
   informalshady, dodgy, hinky
   "a crooked cop”

Who said anything about cheering them on. Lockem up and throw away the key!

It's just an opinion. Everyone has them.

You seem to think the Russians were justified in what they did because you believe that Hillary would have been a horrible president. Don’t you see the problem with that?

As for your “crooked” breakdown, you are simply proving my point. You claim she is dishonest and illegal, with no evidence or conviction. You believe this so absolutely that you are not particularly bothered that the Russians influenced our election.

Maybe we should just start calling our president “treasonous Trump”. Why not? Apparently no evidence is required to unquestioningly believe things. And hey, let’s say Russians try to assassinate him, but miss. And let’s say I justify it by saying “well, I understand why they’d want to do that. He’s a horrible president after all!” “I mean, he is called Treasonous Trump.” “Oh and it’s not like we haven’t tried to assassinate other heads of state before so really, it’s not a big deal, guys.”

Republicans and conservatives would be losing their minds if Democrats defended Russians in interfering with our election on behalf of Hilary Clinton.

 

[tytlyf]

As for your “crooked” breakdown, you are simply proving my point. You claim she is dishonest and illegal, with no evidence or conviction. You believe this so absolutely that you are not particularly bothered that the Russians influenced our election..

Conservatives just repeat what they're told. When asked what is so crooked about Hillary, they usually don't give examples. When a person hears the word 'crooked' over and over and over, they come to believe it. That's propaganda and it got a lot of conservatives and people on the fence during the election.

 

[Phantasman]

This is false. I already quoted some of the indictments that specifically indicate that the Russian campaign was primarily directed at helping Trump and hurting Clinton.

Again, page 17 of the indictment:

43. By 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used their fictitious online personas to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election. They engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump.
a. On or about February 10, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators internally circulated an outline of themes for future content to be posted to ORGANIZATION-controlled social media accounts. Specialists were instructed to post content that focused on “politics in the USA” and to “use any opportunity to criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump—we support them).”
b. On or about September 14, 2016, in an internal review of an ORGANIZATION- created and controlled Facebook group called “Secured Borders,” the account specialist was criticized for having a “low number of posts dedicated to criticizing Hillary Clinton” and was told “it is imperative to intensify criticizing Hillary Clinton” in future posts.

How can it just be against Hillary and for Trump? It was against Cruz and Rubio, and for Bernie Sanders as well.

Your "tunnel vision" I spoke of is evident. You only see one thing. There is nothing Trump is guilty of. If anyone is guilty of something, It is the Obama administration, as they assured us that the process was protected, and they were at the reins.

You're only seeing what you want to see.

 

[Falvlun]

How can it just be against Hillary and for Trump? It was against Cruz and Rubio, and for Bernie Sanders as well.

Your "tunnel vision" I spoke of is evident. You only see one thing.

I didn’t say it was only against Hilary and for Trump. I said it was primarily about them, which is evident from the indictments. As for Rubio and Cruz, hurting them was about promoting Trump, just like promoting Bernie was about hurting Clinton.

Regardless, your statement was false. You said: “Nothing "for" or "against" a particular candidate.” post 134.

The indictments clearly show that the Russians were for and against particular candidates.

 

[columbus]

How can it just be against Hillary and for Trump? It was against Cruz and Rubio, and for Bernie Sanders as well.

Your "tunnel vision" I spoke of is evident. You only see one thing.

What I am seeing here is your tunnel vision. Putin and the Russians were against everybody except Trump.

Everyone.

Doesn't that give you pause? Oligarchs from our biggest global rival/enemy, wanted Trump as president. You think Putin has the best interests of conservative Christian Republicans at heart?

I don't understand how anybody the least bit patriotic could be so partisan that they don't care about that. It boggles my mind how fast conservatives became so good with Putin and his presidential pick.
Tom
ETA ~Sanders never had a chance. That's why Putin and the Republicans didn't attack him. ~

 

[Phantasman]

I didn’t say it was only against Hilary and for Trump. I said it was primarily about them, which is evident from the indictments. As for Rubio and Cruz, hurting them was about promoting Trump, just like promoting Bernie was about hurting Clinton.

Regardless, your statement was false. You said: “Nothing "for" or "against" a particular candidate.” post 134.

The indictments clearly show that the Russians were for and against particular candidates.

lol'..........

I said it was discord. Rubio, Cruz, and Hillary are a group of candidates, not an individual candidate. Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are not an individual candidate, at least in my view. Maybe you see a particular candidate (with tunnel vision) but I see certain CANDIDATES, with an S.

See it as you like. Since the outcome was that it didn't effect the election, it has no importance. The Electoral College worked and the American people spoke. Like it should.

 

[Phantasman]

What I am seeing here is your tunnel vision. Putin and the Russians were against everybody except Trump.

Everyone.

Doesn't that give you pause? Oligarchs from our biggest global rival/enemy, wanted Trump as president. You think Putin has the best interests of conservative Christian Republicans at heart?

I don't understand how anybody the least bit patriotic could be so partisan that they don't care about that. It boggles my mind how fast conservatives became so good with Putin and his presidential pick.
Tom

I could care less who Putin wanted as President. THAT's being patriotic. There is no law against Putin wanting Trump over Hillary if that's the case. I read Pravda all the time. Russia vs the US is no different than the Dems against the Reps. The Russian people are good people with bad actors at some of the top positions. When they look at us, they see the same idiousy we are going through in their own government.

I see us actually more alike with the Russian people than we are different.

 

[columbus]

The Electoral College worked and the American people spoke.

This is a contradiction of terms.
The American people spoke and Hillary got millions more votes than Trump. The Electoral College picked Trump anyway.
Tom

 

[columbus]

I see us actually more alike with the Russian people than we are different.

And becoming more like them all the time.
When did that become the goal of the GOP?
Tom

 

[Phantasman]

This is a contradiction of terms.
The American people spoke and Hillary got millions more votes than Trump. The Electoral College picked Trump anyway.
Tom

The Electoral College chooses the President. Not the majority of people. We are a Republic. Not a mob rule democracy. Each state gets 2 senators. California doesn't get 10 while Rhode Island gets 1.

The Senate is composed of senators, each of whom represents a single state in its entirety, with each state being equally represented by two senators, regardless of its population,

There are 50 states. If you want to go by a popular majority, you need to get rid of the states, and just have one big country like Russia or China.

Hillary lost because she depended on the polls that said she was sure to win states that Trump went to a turned the voters to his favor. They both knew the rules up front. Trump out campaigned Clinton pure and simple.

If you don't like the system change it. Otherwise, accept it as people have for many decades.

 

[Phantasman]

And becoming more like them all the time.
When did that become the goal of the GOP?
Tom

I'm sure glad I am not of hater of certain people like you appear to be. Par for the course. Like the early catholics hating and killing gnostics. Damned heretics, damned Russians, damned Republicans.

Like the OT. Damned gentiles. I wish you could see what I see.

 

[Falvlun]

lol'..........

I said it was discord. Rubio, Cruz, and Hillary are a group of candidates, not an individual candidate. Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are not an individual candidate, at least in my view. Maybe you see a particular candidate (with tunnel vision) but I see certain CANDIDATES, with an S.

They name specific candidates, so yes, I see specific candidates. It was not a general chaos attack. They specifically sought to primarily aid Trump and to primarily denigrate Clinton. They were for Trump (and to a lesser extent Bernie) and they were against Clinton (and to a lesser extent Rubio and Cruz). This isn’t tunnel vision. This is literally what the indictment states, and what the NSA, FBI, and CIA have previously revealed.

Let me ask you this: after the primaries, do you think they were still spending much time on Cruz, Rubio, and Bernie? Trump and Clinton were the only ones that were left at that point. And they were for Trump and against Clinton.

See it as you like. Since the outcome was that it didn't effect the election, it has no importance. The Electoral College worked and the American people spoke. Like it should.

How do you know that it didn’t effect the election?

 

[Phantasman]

They name specific candidates, so yes, I see specific candidates. It was not a general chaos attack. They specifically sought to primarily aid Trump and to primarily denigrate Clinton. They were for Trump (and to a lesser extent Bernie) and they were against Clinton (and to a lesser extent Rubio and Cruz). This isn’t tunnel vision. This is literally what the indictment states, and what the NSA, FBI, and CIA have previously revealed.

Let me ask you this: after the primaries, do you think they were still spending much time on Cruz, Rubio, and Bernie? Trump and Clinton were the only ones that were left at that point. And they were for Trump and against Clinton.


How do you know that it didn’t effect the election?

Rosenstein said it had no effect.

"Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, said at a press conference in Washington: “There is no allegation in this indictment that any American had any knowledge.” Rosenstein added that the charges did not mean the Russian activity had an effect on the outcome of the election."- Mueller charges 13 Russians with interfering in US election to help Trump

Just the facts that the indictment said that the Russians had instigated the "Trump Is Not My President" rally in front of Trump Tower, disproves your allegations. This happened after he won the election.

Discord. Not collusion.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I'm sure glad I am not of hater of certain people like you appear to be.

You sure accuse people of this a lot, when they don't agree with your premises.

 

[Falvlun]

Rosenstein said it had no effect.

"Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, said at a press conference in Washington: “There is no allegation in this indictment that any American had any knowledge.” Rosenstein added that the charges did not mean the Russian activity had an effect on the outcome of the election."- Mueller charges 13 Russians with interfering in US election to help Trump

In this indictment, no Americans were aware; and in this indictment, there is no claim as to the effect on the election.

That does not bar future indictments against Americans.

It also does not mean that the Russian campaign had no effect on the election. Rosenstein was simply clarifying that this indictment doesn’t say that there was. We probably won’t ever know the effect of the Russian campaign. How would you test for that? Which means, we can’t claim that there was no effect.

Just the facts that the indictment said that the Russians had instigated the "Trump Is Not My President" rally in front of Trump Tower, disproves your allegations. This happened after he won the election.

After he won the election. They wanted Trump to win and they succeeded. Now they could start phase 2.

Again, you seem to have trouble with the concept of “primarily”. The Russians were primarily for Trump and against Clinton. That does not mean they could never deviate from that.

Discord. Not collusion.

Absolutely, discord. It just so happens that their primary route to instigate discord was by promoting Trump and denigrating Clinton. It’s not an either/or here. They sowed chaos by helping get Donald Trump elected.

As for collusion, the jury is still out. This set of indictments doesn’t say anything about collusion. The investigation is not over yet.

 

[columbus]

The Electoral College chooses the President. Not the majority of people.

That's what I said.
It was you who claimed "the American people spoke".
They did and picked Hillary. But that doesn't matter.
Tom