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Muhammads knowledge divine or learned?

Britedream

Active Member
@ brite dream my point in this thread is simple. Muhammad frequented Damascus while he was a merchant. Damascus was known at the time for its extensive Jewish & Christian population. Reason states that there is a high probability that he heard Old & New Testament stories in his travels and simply had them recalled in what appears to be epileptic seizures.

Quran is not all about stories, yes there are stories in the Quran; and will come to that later, But can someone know about future events, in order to go and learn about them.

You see, Quran mostly revealed based on events as they unfold, to answer a question, correct a mistake, or guide what to do in certain situations, over a period of 23 years.

For the story part, if the Prophet (pbuh) was copying the stories in the Bible or the Torah, one would expect him to tell the story as it was told.

Jews say we killed Jesus (pbuh), and the Christians confirm it, but the Quran said , they did not kill him.

In the Joseph(pbuh) story, they call the king at the time, Pharaoh, but Quran only calls the ruler at prophet Moses (pbuh), Pharaoh, and at Joseph (pbuh) time, Quran calls him a king.

I just gave you two examples, you can go and read the Quran, and see what picture the Quran emits about Moses, Solomon, David, and all the Prophets of God peace be up on all of them, then compare it with the picture that your books paint them with.
 
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vskipper

Active Member
Contrary to what you might think I already know that the Qur'an is not all stories I had memorized 7 suras before I left Islam and was working on learning the Arabic alphabet, even had a qaeda given to me by the local imam. (Still have it, along with my 2 Quran translations).

And to answer your question, not necessarily. If he was having seizures he could have in fact been having strokes in which case the information would have been altered not to mention by the time of the first revelation in Mt Hira he had already been married to Kadija for some time & had all but ceased his personal merchant activity. Being as they lived in Mecca, where Jewish & Christian populations were nonexistant, he would have been cut off. Because of time & lack of continual exposure the stories could have been altered just because of sheer memory. Without exposure to the information the memory can change information in the mind
 

Britedream

Active Member
Contrary to what you might think I already know that the Qur'an is not all stories I had memorized 7 suras before I left Islam and was working on learning the Arabic alphabet, even had a qaeda given to me by the local imam. (Still have it, along with my 2 Quran translations).

And to answer your question, not necessarily. If he was having seizures he could have in fact been having strokes in which case the information would have been altered not to mention by the time of the first revelation in Mt Hira he had already been married to Kadija for some time & had all but ceased his personal merchant activity. Being as they lived in Mecca, where Jewish & Christian populations were nonexistant, he would have been cut off. Because of time & lack of continual exposure the stories could have been altered just because of sheer memory. Without exposure to the information the memory can change information in the mind
Changing information is one thing and knowing about events before they are unfold is another thing.

I do not recall reading any where that people having seizures know about the future.
 
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vskipper

Active Member
Changing information is one thing and knowing about events before they are unfold is another thing.

I do not recall reading any where that people having seizures know about the future.

Uh huh & what did Muhammad prophecize that wasnt an educated guess?
 

Britedream

Active Member
This is what I posted as a respond.
"Quran is not all about stories, yes there are stories in the Quran; and will come to that later, But can someone know about future events, in order to go and learn about them."

what you are saying that Muhammed peace be up on him,is guessing thousnads of future events and went to learn about thim. taking into the account how the Quran is revealed.

is that possible to you?.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
For the story part, if the Prophet (pbuh) was copying the stories in the Bible or the Torah, one would expect him to tell the story as it was told.

.

False.


The OT was factually the foundation of the NT, and plagiarized in many places.


Yet their are differences. Plagiarized does not mean copied.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
what picture the Quran emits about Moses, Solomon, David, and all the Prophets of God peace be up on all of them, then compare it with the picture that your books paint them with.

.

They are both factually wrong.


The reason your book is wrong because it plagiarized the errors in the bible.

Moses did not exist as written, nor did Solomon, nor did David.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
In the Joseph(pbuh) story, they call the king at the time, Pharaoh, but Quran only calls the ruler at prophet Moses (pbuh), Pharaoh, and at Joseph (pbuh) time, Quran calls him a king.

Both are the same thing, Pharaoh is the title for King of Egypt. It means King of Egypt and has since 1300 BCE. Also in the Bible Pharoah is used as a name of a person. Exodus 5:2, "Pharaoh said" Also Exodus 6:11, "Pharaoh king of Egypt". 2 Kings 23:29, "In his days Pharaoh-necoh king of Egypt"

This what happens when you do not verify a claim and accept it. It shows you are only reading it to confirm your bias.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Lack of evidence does not prove lack of

We have evidence though.

Abraham was a literary creation.


We also have factual evidence Israelites were never in Egypt.

We also have factual evidence Israelites evolved from Canaanites

We have factual evidence monotheism did not start with Abraham.
 

Britedream

Active Member
Both are the same thing, Pharaoh is the title for King of Egypt. It means King of Egypt and has since 1300 BCE. Also in the Bible Pharoah is used as a name of a person. Exodus 5:2, "Pharaoh said" Also Exodus 6:11, "Pharaoh king of Egypt". 2 Kings 23:29, "In his days Pharaoh-necoh king of Egypt"

This what happens when you do not verify a claim and accept it. It shows you are only reading it to confirm your bias.

Hyksos

At the end of the 12th dynasty a people called "Hyksos" settled down in the eastern delta. After a presence in the country for about 150 years another hyksos dynasty (15) made a fortified capital of Avaris.

The Hyksos were foreign invaders who overran Egypt in the 17th century BC and established two contemporaneous dynasties. The 15th dynasty (1674-1567 BC) of the great Hyksos kings dominated the Hyksos vassal chiefs of the 16th dynasty (1684-1567 BC). Egyptians called these kings "rulers of foreign lands," translated in Egyptian as "hega-khase". Greek authors later rendered this as "Hyksos," which was mistranslated as "shepherd kings." For this reason many scholars believed the Hyksos to be the Hebrews, although there is no archaeological basis for this assumption. They were probably city dwellers from southern Canaan (later called Palestine by the Romans).

The period of their rule was a time of peace and prosperity for Egypt. They respected the native religions, maintained ancient Egyptian as the official language of the government, and allowed many Egyptians to serve in the high levels of the administration of the state. They taught the Egyptians new military techniques and introduced the use of the horse and chariot.

The Hyksos were unable to quell the feelings of Egyptian nationalism. They held the southern lands in check with an alliance with the Nubian kingdom of Cush. Despite this, the southern Egyptian city of Thebes finally began a war of independence that culminated with the expulsion of the Hyksos by Ahmose I in 1567 BC.

The rather peaceful dynasty 14 was hereby ended (like the Egyptian dynasty 13) and the new rulers of Avaris (possibly a new wave coming from the Palestinian region) were acting in a more expansive and military active way. They had their own gods but never imposed these on the indigenous people and the language in the administration continued to be Egyptian. They only one domestic god they worshipped was - Set, who they identified as their own god of storms. They seem to have adopted Egyptian manners, laws, and had trade relations with the Minoans and Babylonians. They were recognized by later Egyptians and listed as legitimate kings, but no tombs from these half a dozen rulers have been found and their personal names were non-Egyptian.

The kings claimed themselves pharaohs with all the regalia and tradition attached to that title and the more than hundred years they ruled northern Egypt was mainly a time of peace and prosperity.

A big advantage in combat was their introduction of horses (a new animal to the Egyptians), previously unknown elements in the Egyptian army and they also introduced improved weapons. At most they had control down to the middle Egyptian town of Hermopolis and thus divided the Nile Valley into two parts with the Egyptian dynasties 16 and 17 ruling the south.

No hostility seems to have been between the two parts until the last 20 years after a century of relatively peace. The 16th dynasty (possibly from the Abydos region) may by time have been vassals to the 15th and then were taken over by the 17th from Thebes. From there came the liberation war, initiated by Amhose I and completed by Thutmoses III, that finally wiped out the Hyksos dynasty.

these Kings are foreigners, true they claimed the titles, but the title only applied to the native Kings. Joseph was in that period.

Joseph, Egypt and the Hyksos...

Do you see this statement in the text above "Egyptians called these kings "rulers of foreign lands". not Pharoah.
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
Hyksos

At the end of the 12th dynasty a people called "Hyksos" settled down in the eastern delta. After a presence in the country for about 150 years another hyksos dynasty (15) made a fortified capital of Avaris.

The Hyksos were foreign invaders who overran Egypt in the 17th century BC and established two contemporaneous dynasties. The 15th dynasty (1674-1567 BC) of the great Hyksos kings dominated the Hyksos vassal chiefs of the 16th dynasty (1684-1567 BC). Egyptians called these kings "rulers of foreign lands," translated in Egyptian as "hega-khase". Greek authors later rendered this as "Hyksos," which was mistranslated as "shepherd kings." For this reason many scholars believed the Hyksos to be the Hebrews, although there is no archaeological basis for this assumption. They were probably city dwellers from southern Canaan (later called Palestine by the Romans).

The period of their rule was a time of peace and prosperity for Egypt. They respected the native religions, maintained ancient Egyptian as the official language of the government, and allowed many Egyptians to serve in the high levels of the administration of the state. They taught the Egyptians new military techniques and introduced the use of the horse and chariot.

The Hyksos were unable to quell the feelings of Egyptian nationalism. They held the southern lands in check with an alliance with the Nubian kingdom of Cush. Despite this, the southern Egyptian city of Thebes finally began a war of independence that culminated with the expulsion of the Hyksos by Ahmose I in 1567 BC.

The rather peaceful dynasty 14 was hereby ended (like the Egyptian dynasty 13) and the new rulers of Avaris (possibly a new wave coming from the Palestinian region) were acting in a more expansive and military active way. They had their own gods but never imposed these on the indigenous people and the language in the administration continued to be Egyptian. They only one domestic god they worshipped was - Set, who they identified as their own god of storms. They seem to have adopted Egyptian manners, laws, and had trade relations with the Minoans and Babylonians. They were recognized by later Egyptians and listed as legitimate kings, but no tombs from these half a dozen rulers have been found and their personal names were non-Egyptian.

The kings claimed themselves pharaohs with all the regalia and tradition attached to that title and the more than hundred years they ruled northern Egypt was mainly a time of peace and prosperity.

A big advantage in combat was their introduction of horses (a new animal to the Egyptians), previously unknown elements in the Egyptian army and they also introduced improved weapons. At most they had control down to the middle Egyptian town of Hermopolis and thus divided the Nile Valley into two parts with the Egyptian dynasties 16 and 17 ruling the south.

No hostility seems to have been between the two parts until the last 20 years after a century of relatively peace. The 16th dynasty (possibly from the Abydos region) may by time have been vassals to the 15th and then were taken over by the 17th from Thebes. From there came the liberation war, initiated by Amhose I and completed by Thutmoses III, that finally wiped out the Hyksos dynasty.

these Kings are foreigners, true they claimed the titles, but the title only applied to the native Kings. Joseph was in that period.

Joseph, Egypt and the Hyksos...

Do you see this statement in the text above "Egyptians called these kings "rulers of foreign lands". not Pharoah.

Non-sequitur and argument from authority.

You were talking about the Bible vs Quran not the Hyksos.

Read this, the author is an Egyptology not some random website made by laymen.

The Hyksos Period in Egypt, Charlotte Booth

The website you link provides no credible sources from two authors with no formal training in any relevant field. Also Pharaoh is the Egyptian word for their King not every other King. It became synomous with King in a cultural setting and this setting only. Just as Caesar become another word for Emperor but only applied to Roman Emperors (Imperator), although the word Emperor is french not Latin. Imperator being a commander rank while Emperor is a title of a ruler in French. Later this word was adapted to become Kaiser and Tsar in the French context. Certain words are synonymous within a culture and time. These words are not applied to other cultures at all times. Context is key here...

You have failed to even address my refutation.
 
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Britedream

Active Member
Non-sequitur and argument from authority.

You were talking about the Bible vs Quran not the Hyksos.

Read this, the author is an Egyptology not some random website made by laymen.

The Hyksos Period in Egypt, Charlotte Booth

The website you link provides no credible sources from two authors with no formal training in any relevant field. Also Pharaoh is the Egyptian word for their King not every other King. It became synomous with King in a cultural setting and this setting only. Just as Caesar become another word for Emperor but only applied to Roman Emperors (Imperator), although the word Emperor is french not Latin. Imperator being a commander rank while Emperor is a title of a ruler in French. Later this word was adapted to become Kaiser and Tsar in the French context. Certain words are synonymous within a culture and time. These words are not applied to other cultures at all times. Context is key here...

You have failed to even address my refutation.

You are inventing history at the seat of your chair, go learn then come here and post, otherwise, I am not ready to waste my time with you. Have a good day.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I working on my Ph. D in archaeology with my thesis on Syria-Palestine (Biblical Archaeology). If you want I can break the word down in Hebrew and Ancient Egypt with cross reference to the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew... How the word is applied, the variation on the word.

You are reading a Bible in English using English words only. You are not reading it in Hebrew nor cross referencing it with Ancient Egypt. Look at Strong's Concordance then I will break down the word for you.
 
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