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Muhammads knowledge divine or learned?

outhouse

Atheistically
To me looking for archeological evidence (or lack of) is as logical as looking for archealogical evidence of Abraham. Abraham was a singular individual that traveled with his family. What would you possibly find? (Not to mention he came before the great flood)

Every aspect about him reflects him as a literary creation.


Israelites factually did not exist prior to 1200 BC at which time they were proto Israelites who still were nothing more then displaced Canaanites and other Semitic peoples.


Monotheism did not start until after 622 BC



Israelites were never in Egypt, and there was no exodus
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
I did read your post, and posts on such by people before you, and the link, which tries to distort known science, to make it fit an ancient scripture that is just wrong.
What link are you talking about?

You wrote this -

I just searched and found this on the net. I did not check it.

[AL-QUR'AN 55:19:20]
In the Arabic text the word 'barzakh' means a barrier or a partition. The Arabic word 'maraja' literally means 'they both meet and mix with each other.' Early commentators of the QUR'AN were unable to explain the two opposite meanings for the two bodies of water, i.e. they meet and mix, and at the same time, there is a barrier between them. Modern Science has discovered that in places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has ita own temperature, salinity and density. Principles of Oceanography, Davis, pp. 92-93 Oceanologists are now in a better position to explain this verse. There is a slanted unseen water barrier between the seas through which water from one sea passes to the other. But when the water from one sea enters the other sea, it loses its distinctive characteristic and becomes homogenized with the other water. In a way this barrier serves as a transitional homogenizing area for the two waters. This scientific phenonmenon mentioned in the QUR'AN was also confirmed by Dr. William Hay who is a well-known marine scientist and Professor og Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, U.S.A.


I followed the information and found it came from an Islamic apologetics site, and is misinformation. They misrepresent the meaning of the work.




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outhouse

Atheistically
Getting a muslim to understand how divine aspects were not part of their books


is the exact same as getting a YEC to admit the facts of evolution


You cannot fight fanaticism with education and knowledge
 

Britedream

Active Member
I looked up the word you listed on several lexicons and translation of the Quran. All of which support what I said. Unless I was wrong about which word you were talking about you are going to have to provide a source for me to accept your translation.
you have listed the arabic word and said, it does not have the meaning That I posted, I showed the meaning, i did not talk about translations. So all you have listed above have no value, just trying to avoid the obvious, Please go and post your empty words somewhere else.
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
since you checked it, what did Davis say in 92-93?


I did not look up the paper by Davis.


I went to the site you got the information from, read the quotes from Davis, that they were using, and read what the Islam site apologetics were saying about those quotes.


They were twisting the information trying to make it fit their ideas.


You too can go to the site, and actually read the information.


It is a FACT that bodies of water mix. It is a FACT that fresh and salt water mix.


Our ocean currents work by this principle.


Simplified - Salt water is more dense/heaver. River water, melting ice caps, rain, etc., are less dense and "temporarily" layer on top of the denser salt water. The more dense water drops down, and the less dense water rushes into that space, - where it mixes with the salt water, becoming more dense, and then drops down. This continuous cycle creates the ocean movement we call currents.


The site is twisting what research says.


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Britedream

Active Member
I did not look up the paper by Davis.


I went to the site you got the information from, read the quotes from Davis, that they were using, and read what the Islam site apologetics were saying about those quotes.


They were twisting the information trying to make it fit their ideas.


You too can go to the site, and actually read the information.


It is a FACT that bodies of water mix. It is a FACT that fresh and salt water mix.


Our ocean currents work by this principle.


Simplified - Salt water is more dense/heaver. River water, melting ice caps, rain, etc., are less dense and "temporarily" layer on top of the denser salt water. The more dense water drops down, and the less dense water rushes into that space, - where it mixes with the salt water, becoming more dense, and then drops down. This continuous cycle creates the ocean movement we call currents.


The site is twisting what research says.


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So you are putting yourself in place of a Scientist and interpreting the translation of the verse. interesting.

when I put what they were saying, I put it because there is a reference to check the validity, and I did inform the teader that I did not check it. excpecting anyone who wants to varify the info, could do so.

after your post, I went to gather info about the subject, I will show it later. but it was not a distortion as you claim to be the case.

As a matter fact it is very interesting.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
So you are putting yourself in place of a Scientist and interpreting the translation of the verse. interesting.

when I put what they were saying, I put it because there is a reference to check the validity, and I did inform the teader that I did not check it. excpecting anyone who wants to varify the info, could do so.

after your post, I went to gather info about the subject, I will show it later. but it was not a distortion as you claim to be the case.

As a matter fact it is very interesting.

Your book contains mythology, why cant you deal with it?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
So you are putting yourself in place of a Scientist and interpreting the translation of the verse. interesting.

when I put what they were saying, I put it because there is a reference to check the validity, and I did inform the teader that I did not check it. excpecting anyone who wants to varify the info, could do so.

after your post, I went to gather info about the subject, I will show it later. but it was not a distortion as you claim to be the case.

As a matter fact it is very interesting.


Dude - they mix - and the Qur'an is wrong - get over it.


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Shad

Veteran Member
it is about the verse and what the scientist say. it is not my interpretation or yours.

No I linked the page of the book in which Muslims quote-mine an explanation of a physical barrier to water movement in a straight with water in general. It is easy to see how these apologists lie and ignorant uneducated people accept the claims without checking the claims. Why? Cause it confirms their religions and that is all that matters to a believer, even if that confirms is a lie.

If you want I can repost the scanned pages of said book
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
"Barrier conditions the water", this is my own statement, as I understood the claim has to be the case. since two different liquids that have different densities, do not mix right away in the normal circumstances. so I looked at it this way.

A-Sea one
B- small sea; barrier; different density from A and C, both is feeding it with the different salinities
C-Sea two; has different density than A.

So B will always be in equilibrium. making the water coming from the Sea with less salinity slightly more dense, and the water coming from the sea with high salinity slightly less dense. ( This is what I mean by barrier conditions the water).

if you look at it this way, then the Sea A actually is not mixing with sea C, but Both A and C are mixing with B; which has different body of water; different characteristic of salinity, density, etc. . This way both Sea A and C, keep their own characteristic. yet you see them meet, due to the barrier.

if I look at the mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean, this is the only way I can think of why is the Atlantic Ocean not changing the characteristic of The Mediterranean Sea. of course, this is my own understanding.

The verses say a barrier which can not be transgressed, so if water is mixing the verse is wrong and so was Allah. A barrier should prevent mixing especially if it can not be transgressed. We see the opposite

Negative you are way off. Water A has less salinity but is cool than Water M. Water A flows into Body M from a upper layer as salinity is a greater modifier a low levels than temperature. Water M cools Water A faster than salt diffusion to from M to A. Water A flows a distance into Body M due to this. Where Water A meets Water M, point of contact, Water A mixes becoming Water M via diffusion. Water M does not become A within Body M due to currents pushing A into M. There is no water B as both have close salinity levels. Salt molecules not attached to Water M attach to Water A.

Water M flows into Body A at a lower depth level due to higher salinity but is warmer than A, diffusion offsets temperature. This allows Body A to flow a distance into Body M as diffusion is slower than the movement of the current of M, as it was with A. However diffusion still happens and is always happening. Water M becomes Water A. Likewise Water A becomes Water M as pointed out above. The foreign body due to current became like the native body.

Current for Water A is at a higher depth of M. So the current is always move Water A in a eastward direction. Water M's current is at a lower depth, so the current always move water westward. Both bodies follow into each but at different levels. So neither Water can maintain its unique salinity indefinitely over a distance due to factors which generate mixing; wind, tide, currents, gravity, etc. Each Body of Water maintains it's unique properties outside of the point of contact. This is due to the limited speeds in which mixing happens due to GRE and speed of light restrictions.

Each Body of water is not homogenous but has a number of layers. One of these layers is actually called the mixing layer. These layers divides water with higher salinity from water with lower salinity. These layers are also contain temperature factors. Warm water is on top as it maintains a higher temperature due contact from sources of heat. The warmer water is the the layer with less salinity as salinity causes density. Cool water lacks this contact of heat so is at a lower depth outside of thermal objects like volcanic vents. If a vent heats a high level of salinity water at great depths, this water will shoot to the surface and mix with the top layer. In polar regions most of the layers of water disappear as temperature can not be maintained by sources of heat. Salinity become more homogenous but not total homogenous.

The difference in the book's example is that it is using the strait of Gibraltar which has a physical barrier in the form of an underwater mountains. This example is an isolated cause which can not be used for open ocean contact such as the Atlantic and Indian Ocean. This is why it is quote-mining and a distortion. The underwater mountains are the barrier not the water. Also it limits the depth at which water mixes cause drastic foreign body projection into each body of water. Dufsion is always happening regardless as salt is soluble in water, basic chemistry. If you leave salt in a later cup of fresh water it will always become salt water. Even without your mixing it gravity and heat provides mechanical movements for this mixing to happen, it would just happen slowly. If you account for the high amount of mechanical force in a ocean water is always moving, always mixing. Mixing by depth with water moving between layers and mixing horizontal.

In estuaries is there is a drastic difference in water as one body contains salt while another does not. This is what is called brackish water. Since there is no salt in fresh water salt molecules are transferred from the salt water molecules to the fresh water molecules. The diffence between Water F, B and S covers a range far greater than found in which a Water S Body. However as with above the water still mixes at the point of contact.

The barrier as you call it is in fact the point of contact in to water mixes. So the word barrier is not the proper word to use here. If a barrier can not be transgressed then there is no mixing at all. Water A can not become Water M and vice-versa. You are redefining words to fit your interpretation to match science. This is post hoc rationalization. The fact remains the verse use certain words with certain meaning which makes this verse incorrect. Also when I looked up the word which you claim is separate and/or mix it is in fact a lie. In the Quran lexicon, a lexicon just for the Quran, it has no such meaning. In fact in a use outside the Quran it still does not have this meaning. So you will have to link a source as every source I have used says I am right.

[bar-ee-er]



noun 1. anything built or serving to bar passage, as a railing, fence, or the like: People may pass through the barrier only when their train is announced.


2. any natural bar or obstacle: a mountain barrier.


3. anything that restrains or obstructs progress, access, etc.: a trade barrier.


4. a limit or boundary of any kind: the barriers of caste.


5. Physical Geography. an antarctic ice shelf or ice front.

6. barrier beach.

7. barriers, History/Historical. the palisade or railing surrounding the ground where tourneys and jousts were carried on.

8. Archaic. a fortress or stockade.

[trans-gres, tranz-]



verb (used without object) 1. to violate a law, command, moral code, etc.; offend; sin.

verb (used with object) 2. to pass over or go beyond (a limit, boundary, etc.): to transgress bounds of prudence.


3. to go beyond the limits imposed by (a law, command, etc.); violate; infringe: to transgress the will of God.
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
The verses say a barrier which can not be transgressed, so if water is mixing the verse is wrong and so was Allah. A barrier should prevent mixing especially if it can not be transgressed. We see the opposite

Negative you are way off. Water A has less salinity but is cooler than Water M. Water A flows into Body M from a upper layer as salinity is a greater modifier a low levels than temperature. Water M cools Water A faster than salt diffusion to from M to A. Water A flows a distances into Body M due to this. Where Water A meets Water M, Water A mixes becoming Water M becoming Water M. There is no water B as both have close salinity levels.

Water M flows into Body A at a lower level due to salinity and cools fast than diffusion of salt. This allows Body A to flow a distance into Body M as difusion is slower than the movement of the current of M, as it was with A. However diffusion still happen. Water M becomes Water A. Likewise Water A becomes Water B.

Current for Water A is at a higher depth of M. So the current is always move Water be it A or B in a eastward direction. Water M's current is at a lower depth, so the current always move water westward be it A or M. So neither Water can maintain its unique salinity indefinitely due to factors which generate mixing; wind, tide, currents, gravity, etc. Each Body of Water maintains it's unique properties beyond the point of mixing as the flow of the other Water type is not greater than the total sum of the current Water type. This is due to the limited speeds in which mixing happens due to GRE and speed of light restrictions.

Each Body of water is not homogenous but has a number of layers. One of these layers is actually called the mixing layer. These layers divides water with higher salinity from water with lower salinity. These layers are also contain temperature factors. Warm water is on top as it maintains a higher temperature due contact from sources of heat. Cool water lacks this contact so is at a lower depth. In polar regions most of the layers of water disappear as temperature can not be maintained by sources of heat. Salinity become more homogenous but not total homogenous

The barrier as you call it is in fact the point of contact in to water mixes. So the word barrier is not the proper word to use here. If a barrier can not be transgressed then there is no mixing at all. Water A can not become Water M and vice-versa. You are redefining words to fit your interpretation to match science. This is post hoc rationalization. The fact remains the verse use certain words with certain meaning which makes this verse incorrect.

Also when I looked up the word which you claim is separate and/or mix it is in fact a lie. In the Quran lexicon, a lexicon just for the Quran, it has no such meaning. In fact in a use outside the Quran it still does not have this meaning.

[bar-ee-er]



noun 1. anything built or serving to bar passage, as a railing, fence, or the like: People may pass through the barrier only when their train is announced.


2. any natural bar or obstacle: a mountain barrier.


3. anything that restrains or obstructs progress, access, etc.: a trade barrier.


4. a limit or boundary of any kind: the barriers of caste.


5. Physical Geography. an antarctic ice shelf or ice front.

6. barrier beach.

7. barriers, History/Historical. the palisade or railing surrounding the ground where tourneys and jousts were carried on.

8. Archaic. a fortress or stockade.

[trans-gres, tranz-]



verb (used without object) 1. to violate a law, command, moral code, etc.; offend; sin.

verb (used with object) 2. to pass over or go beyond (a limit, boundary, etc.): to transgress bounds of prudence.


3. to go beyond the limits imposed by (a law, command, etc.); violate; infringe: to transgress the will of God.



You gave more then the simplified version. Now there will be confusion and scratching of heads, LOL! :D


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Shad

Veteran Member
You gave more then the simplified version. Now there will be confusion and scratching of heads, LOL! :D


*

Simplified answers result in arguments from ignorance due to terminology errors in a field and the use of words in common dialogues. Better to give a short lesson to educate people. At the very least it allows me to conclude one's comprehension level and/or willingness to learn.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Learned, of course.

The claim of archangel Gabriel, while fascinating story, is also nothing more than fable, and delusion of his hubris.

It is no more real and quite as baseless claim. It is no more believable than that of Mary being visited by the same angel in Luke 1, or the angel Moroni visiting Joseph Smith.

At least, with Mary's, it was just a visit that revealed that she was pregnant, and not the silly claims, which angels provide knowledge of books from God are passed down through Muhammad and Smith.
 

Britedream

Active Member
Read Lawrence Kraus, he has a book out describing nothing is actually something.


Google is your friend here.

(Indeed, religion and philosophy have added nothing to our understanding of these ideas in millennia.) I spend a great deal of time in the book detailing precisely how physics has changed our notions of “nothing,” for example. The old idea that nothing might involve empty space, devoid of mass or energy, or anything material, for example, has now been replaced by a boiling bubbling brew of virtual particles, popping in and out of existence in a time so short that we cannot detect them directly. I then go on to explain how other versions of “nothing”—beyond merely empty space—including the absence of space itself, and even the absence of physical laws, can morph into “something.” Indeed, in modern parlance, “nothing” is most often unstable. Not only can something arise from nothing, but most often the laws of physics require that to occur.

He talking about Ideas,"The old idea.....Has been replaced...."
He has to assume something "time" ,"in time so short..."
He has to assume new laws for that, physical laws do not applied out side the universe.
these are mere speculations.
Nothing and something are two contradicting words, that means proving one disprove the other, or you would be saying he is tall means he is short.

That defies common sense .

Keep the following two quotes in mind.
But there is something even more profound about the nature of “scientific truth” that has arisen in physics, which I don’t think is generally appreciated. It is the simple fact that we realize that none of our theories are “true” in the sense that they adequately describe nature on all scales.

I cannot hide my own intellectual bias here. As I state in the first sentence of the book, I have never been sympathetic to the notion that creation requires a creator.

Ideas about possibilities.

So where that leaves us.

The universe is existing, and it used to be nothing.
The earlier conclusion remains.

Here is the link:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/everything-and-nothing
 
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