@InvestigateTruth
Hello and sorry for the late response, been busy the past few days.
“I believe even in lineages they are not all biological. It is spiritual and also more about order of righteous men or chosen ones who came after another, rather than biological lineage.”
Mate it's clear there’s a contradiction, you can try to wiggle your way out of it if you want, you will only be fooling yourself with such an explanation.
“But if someone was an atheist or a Christian they still could think Quran is wrong and you are just trying to somehow justify it. The way you treat Bible is just as how atheists treat the Quran.”
Honestly, there is no comparison when it comes to Muslims critiquing the Bible and others critiquing the Quran. The Bible is an easy target unfortunately, this is why I say that Christianity’s biggest enemy is knowledge.
“That is why, i believe we cannot judge if scriptures is wrong or right with our fallible human minds.”
God gave us a brain to use it. We can clearly see multiple red flags when it comes to the Bible. You might want to deny reality, but any intellectually honest and sound person can take the Bible completely apart.
“Remember the Bible itself says, all scriptures (Bible) is inspired by God.”
The Bible says a lot of things, it also says that God’s word is flawless (Psalms 12:6) Yet here is a book that’s not flawless. So quite a predicament a person has who claims Christianity a religion from God.
“Thus we need to ask Allah, if Bible lineage is wrong or it means spiritual successorship of righteous men.”
It doesn’t mean the spiritual successorship of righteous men. It is a clear bloodline lineage and the author messed up. Get over it. One lineage has more names than the other also so ya...
As I said, there are too many mistakes in the book and I am not so sure why you are so adamant on the contrary when it is crystal. What are you even losing?
“But since there is no direct communication with Allah we cannot prove or disprove”
Of course, there is. Prayer and Quran. Praying is when we talk to Allah and the Quran is when Allah talks to us.
“But as I said before, there is no verse in Quran that Allah said the Gospel or Torah are corrupted.”
Corruption comes in various forms, friend. It can come in the form of text, and/or teaching, and/or practice. Allah tells us a story highlighting how the Children of Israel kept annoying Moses and being rebellious and then says;
So can you [believers] hope that such people will believe you when some of them used to hear the words of God and then deliberately twist them, even when they understood them? 2:75
Allah also continues to say that a lot of them are uneducated in their religion and that they rely on guesswork and wishful thinking. Just like you were doing with the whole lineage thing. Then He says;
So woe to those who write something down with their own hands and then claim, ‘This is from God,’ in order to make some small gain. Woe to them for what their hands have written! Woe to them for all that they have earned!
Allah also states in another place how a pledge was taken with the Children of Israel and they broke it.
But they broke their pledge, so We distanced them [from Us] and hardened their hearts. They distort the meaning of [revealed] words and have forgotten some of what they were told to remember: you [Prophet] will always find treachery in all but a few of them. Overlook this and pardon them: God loves those who do good. 5:13
It needs to be clear that the message that was sent down to Moses and Jesus (pbut) was never corrupted, it was only after their departure where innovations and corruption started to take place within their message.
“it is specifically talking about Torah (not Gosple)”
If you aren’t familiar with rhetoric speech, then the Quran will confuse you due to the constant use of various devices. The corruption comes from both. It started at the heart (children of Israel) and as time went on, the whole body was infected. As we can clearly see today.
Here’s another example from the Quran.
Believers, many rabbis, and monks wrongfully consume people’s possessions and turn people away from God’s path. [Prophet], tell those who hoard gold and silver instead of giving in God’s cause that they will have a grievous punishment. 9:34
“Not everything in the scriptures are literal. In scriptures there are symbolic expressions.”
I’ll concede to that when it calls for it, but saying how a guy died either hung themselves or they fell on their head is two different things. Plus one says that he threw the money away and the other says he bought a field with it. So please, let’s be fair here.
“See, scriptures is not like a ordinary book that needs to say who wrote it. It says all scriptures is inspired by God, so, this is how God wanted to be known.”
Mate, the Bible says God regrets (Genesis 6:6). I’ll concede that it’s a symbolic heart but an omniscient God can’t feel regret. It’s logically impossible, like a square circle.
“Can we say to God, why you did not include the name of disciples who wrote the Book?”
Your ignorance is apparent. John 21:24 states that they are the disciple that is testifying to these things and who wrote them down. Ironically enough, Christian scholars talk about John 21 being a later addition. Look it up for yourself, if you don’t believe me. Just type in John 21 later addition.
“This cannot mean the Bible is changed.”
The council picked from the millions of manuscripts that were out there and they picked which nature of Jesus they should adopt. Anyone that rejected, was killed. This isn’t news! Seekers of truth know this because it is all historically documented and they take the time to look. Please do the same and examine all that I say.
All you have to do is read up on the Bible. Wikipedia is a good start. Looks like you’re in for a shocker if all this is new to you. I’m sorry to break it to you though. But since you can get as low as a symbolic meaning when it comes to clear blood lineage, maybe regular information like this will just fly over your head, due to your emotional attachment, which is still puzzling me I might add.
“Can a person who believes a Book is word of God, change it?”
People change the meanings and teachings all the time, what are you talking about? Ever hear of Isis? Or KKK? These people twist scripture to satisfy their own agendas. As do countless other people. Where do you live?
“How does that mean it was corrupted?”
It doesn’t mean it was corrupted, it just means that the task of preservation was given to them. While Allah took it upon Himself to preserve the message of Islam. The Qur’an has manuscripts that date back to the Prophet’s time or even right after his death, with no change in the message. All memorizers today have a certification that has a chain of memorizers that goes back to the Prophet (pbuh). There is absolutely no comparison between the Bible and the Quran.
“ Allah is confirming the Gospel and Torah are truth from God, because Allah had revealed in them about Muhammad. It does not say that the Gospel or Torah were corrupted. It does not day that they removed verses about Muhammad from the Gosple and Torah.”
Where does it say in 7:157 that they are truthful? You’ve just added that in there unjustly. And as I said, one can definitely find verses in the Bible that could allude to Muhammad. We Muslims don’t need those verses, to confirm Muhammad’s message. There are way more compelling propositions than what the bible says.
And I never made the claim that they did remove verses about Muhammad. I’ll concede that a lot of meanings have been altered in teaching. Like when they say the paraclete is the holy spirit when we know that the word parakletos in Greek refers to actual humans. Plus Jesus says that he (the paraclete) won't come unless I go, yet the Holy Spirit was around before that, another contradiction?
“Those verses are allusions to Muhammad. It does not mean, that they actually have the name of Muhammad in the Scriptures explicitly. Thus, if Quran does not explicitly names the 12 Imams or successors, this is the way of Allah. He did not want to explicitly reveal their name for a wisdom”
After all the mess that came to light as we gained more knowledge, I wouldn’t be surprised if the name was removed. And I fail to see how you made such a connection with the 12 imams honestly.
“Again you are coming with your own explanation.”
I’m not, this is what Christian Scholars say. There were copies of copies of copies of copies of copies times hundreds of thousands of copies. Each copy has its own mistake... There is a field called textual criticism for the Bible. One can examine all the changes over the years. Starting from the 3rd Century of course, because for the first 200 years there wasn’t a full book, to begin with. I bet you didn’t know that either.
“Exactly. So, you are saying Bible is true and legitimate because you are using Bible to prove your point. I am glad you believe the Bible is true from God.”
No man not at all. I’ll indulge in any paradigm, but in all honesty, if we can’t get past the authors, then clearly everything else is in question. But again, just to be fair, I’ll even give it to you that the Bible contains some truth in it. Like when it says that God is one. Or that God is not a human being that God changes His mind. (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29).
“So, it is a legitimate Book”
No one said it is not. Maybe I am not clear. I don’t have an issue with Christians, but rather Christianity. A Christian can believe that God is one and that Jesus is just a miraculous man, yet not God. This is great and I applaud them for breaking away from the shackles of the Church and going with the logic and reasoning that God gave them. There are countless ways to get to God friend. Allah hears all. Yet, there is only one way God wants us to follow and that’s radical monotheism. Saying God is part of a trinity is not radical monotheism.
