"My God, My God, Why Has Thou Forsaken Me?

[free spirit]

javajo;

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21

I put that verse because that is why Jesus was forsaken by God, because he became sin for us, and God cannot look upon sin. Paul was an apostle, inspired by the Holy Spirit, I am just a Christian saved by grace.

]

It is not hard to understand if we read Psalm 22 from verse 1 to verse 21 In which Jesus is supplicating to the Father and explaining to Him what He is going through. No wonder He is feeling abandoned and alone but the Father could not intervene because His mission had to be fulfilled by Jesus and Jesus alone, for only in this way could His eventually victorious human soul be glorified. (Acts 2:33-36.)
We can also see that in verses 22, 23 and 24, there is a change of tone as if the prophet has finished speaking the words of Jesus, but continues in praises of Him and of God, and in verse 24 it is clear that God never despised His afflictions, nor did He ever hide His face from Him.
So your idea that God cannot look upon sin or on His Son in the flesh ( is only a speculation gone feral) and we should avoid speculation.

 

[smokydot]

Everything He taught was in metaphor.
..."and not without a parable did He teach"

The text is, "and without a parable spake he not unto the multitudes."
The NT is replete with words of Jesus that are not parables, spoken to non-multitudes.

And God did not dictate the death of His only Son for your sake. 1 Jn 4:10 says he did.

Jesus did not save by His death. 1 Pe 1:18-20 says he did.

He saved by the life He lived. That's not what the NT says. . .see the following for starters.
And speaking of rants: yours is a true rant--man's word against the Word of God written.

Here's eight for starters:

1 Pet 1:18-20 -- "ye were not redeemed with corruptible things. . .but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was made manifest in these times for you."

1 Jn 4:10 -- "God. . .sent his Son to be the propitiation (satisfy God's wrath) for our sins."

Ac 20:28 -- "Feed the church of the Lord, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Heb 2:17 -- ". . .a merciful and faithful high priest. . .to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 9:12,14,28 -- "by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. . .

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, to purge your conscience from dead works. . ."

"Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. . ."

Heb 13:12 -- "Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate."

And there are more. . .

Your ignorance of the NT is deplorable. . .you are no theologian, rogue or otherwise.

 

[Thief]

The text is, "and without a parable spake he not unto the multitudes."
The NT is replete with words of Jesus that are not parables, spoken to non-multitudes.
Here's eight for starters:

1 Pet 1:18-20 -- "ye were not redeemed with corruptible things. . .but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was made manifest in these times for you."

1 Jn 4:10 -- "God. . .sent his Son to be the propitiation (satisfy God's wrath) for our sins."

Ac 20:28 -- "Feed the church of the Lord, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Heb 2:17 -- ". . .a merciful and faithful high priest. . .to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 9:12,14,28 -- "by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. . .

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, to purge your conscience from dead works. . ."

"Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. . ."

Heb 13:12 -- "Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate."

And there are more. . .

Your ignorance of the NT is deplorable. . .you are no theologian, rogue or otherwise.

Actually...your technique is deplorable.
Recital is not wisdom....not by any means.

And your denial of my character means nothing to me.

It remains as I said earlier in this thread.....
He died without comfort.

He died for political reasons.

And we are saved by His teachings...not His death.

 

[free spirit]

Thief

He died without comfort.

But He was glad when His mission was finished and accomplished then He gave up His Spirit, death never has comfort, but it is a lonly thing.

He died for political reasons.

No Pilate was at a loss what to do with Him, the jews on the other hand wanted Him dead because they were afraid that He would convert all the congregation.
The real reason as to why He had to die sinless, was so He could fulfill the Law and reverse what Adam did and because of that now all of humanity has justification of life.

And we are saved by His teachings...not His death.

If we obey His teaching we are sanctified, His sinless death has made it possible.

 

[Thief]

Thief

But He was glad when His mission was finished and accomplished then He gave up His Spirit, death never has comfort, but it is a lonly thing.



No Pilate was at a loss what to do with Him, the jews on the other hand wanted Him dead because they were afraid that He would convert all the congregation.
The real reason as to why He had to die sinless, was so He could fulfill the Law and reverse what Adam did and because of that now all of humanity has justification of life.

If we obey His teaching we are sanctified, His sinless death has made it possible.

And this is the rant that fails.

 

[smokydot]

Actually...your technique is deplorable.
Recital is not wisdom....not by any means.
And your denial of my character means nothing to me.

It's all about you. . .

It remains as I said earlier in this thread.....
He died without comfort.

That is not contested.
That was part of the wrath of God he had to endure.

He died for political reasons.
And we are saved by His teachings...not His death.

"Recital is not wisdom," but the recital of your rant against the Word of God written is? . .not while Jesus reigns, now and eternally.

 

[smokydot]

And this is the rant that fails.

Not while Jesus reigns, now and eternally.

 

[Scott C.]

What happened, that made Christ call out on the cross? Evidently, Christ had tried to 'give up His life', and nothing happened, and yet, The Father had 'commanded' that Jesus had this power.

The ministers of the Protestant churches that I attended, believe that The Father could not handle the sins of the world that Jesus took upon Himself, and thus 'turned away' for a moment.

Is it possible, that Jesus thought that His work was finished, but it was not? Was satan given one last chance to 'tempt' Jesus? If Jesus would have 'cursed' The Father, would all of His work be for nothing? Is it possible, that Jesus had to prove, that under the most fearful conditions, that He could 'remain worthy until the end', as required of all Christians? Jesus faced the possibility of having His legs broken, if He remained on the cross. We see in Job, that satan could tempt Job in any way, but was not allowed to break a single bone. In the case of Christ, Christ must have been in terrible fear and confusion, and yet, He assumed nothing. He did the correct thing. He asked His Father.

My response may be similar to some others here. I admit I did not read all posts. I believe that Jesus always had the support of his Father throughout his life. The power and sustaining influence of God the Father was always with him. He always received spiritual support for any trials he endured. But, when it came time to atone for the sins of the world, Jesus had to do this on his own. The Father withdrew his supporting influence so Christ could make this sacrifice on his own. Perhaps Christ did not fully understand how hard it would be, which prompted him to ask "why hast thou forsaken me?"

 

[Thief]

Not while Jesus reigns, now and eternally.

There is no crown on His head.

He was resistant to such things.

Of Himself He did say...'brother and fellow servant'.

 

[smokydot]

There is no crown on His head.

The NT says there will be one on mine!

He was resistant to such things.

Crowns don't make kings. . .royalty makes kings. . .in this case the royal line of King David.

Of Himself He did say...'brother and fellow servant'.

Of Himself the NT Scriptures doth say he hath a crown of gold and rideth forth as king to conquer.

We have in your responses here a true rant--the word of man against the Word of God written.

 

[Ben Masada]

What happened, that made Christ call out on the cross? Evidently, Christ had tried to 'give up His life', and nothing happened, and yet, The Father had 'commanded' that Jesus had this power.

The ministers of the Protestant churches that I attended, believe that The Father could not handle the sins of the world that Jesus took upon Himself, and thus 'turned away' for a moment.

Is it possible, that Jesus thought that His work was finished, but it was not? Was satan given one last chance to 'tempt' Jesus? If Jesus would have 'cursed' The Father, would all of His work be for nothing? Is it possible, that Jesus had to prove, that under the most fearful conditions, that He could 'remain worthy until the end', as required of all Christians? Jesus faced the possibility of having His legs broken, if He remained on the cross. We see in Job, that satan could tempt Job in any way, but was not allowed to break a single bone. In the case of Christ, Christ must have been in terrible fear and confusion, and yet, He assumed nothing. He did the correct thing. He asked His Father.

Here is what happened for Jesus to come to that conclusion that God had really forsaken him. Just the night before, he had spent the whole night praying so that God helped him not to have to drink of that cup. It means that Jesus was not willing to walk he via dolorosa. Luke says that he prayed down to the sweat of blood. He didn't want to die on the cross. But it was too late; the soldiers were at the gate of the Gethsemani. When Jesus realized that he was wasting his time, he said, "be Thy will done NOT MINE. It means that he went to the cross against his will. So, when hanging from his cross, he was reminded of the night before in prayer in the Gethsemani, and became conscious that God had really forsaken him. His "why did you forsake me?" is very common to anyone at end of his or her life. The truth is that Jesus never meant to die for the sins of any one. So, the idea was born in the Christian Theology to promote Replacement Theology.
Ben

 

[free spirit]

Ben Masada;

Here is what happened for Jesus to come to that conclusion that God had really forsaken him. Just the night before, he had spent the whole night praying so that God helped him not to have to drink of that cup. It means that Jesus was not willing to walk he via dolorosa. Luke says that he prayed down to the sweat of blood. He didn't want to die on the cross. But it was too late; the soldiers were at the gate of the Gethsemani. When Jesus realized that he was wasting his time, he said, "be Thy will done NOT MINE. It means that he went to the cross against his will. So, when hanging from his cross, he was reminded of the night before in prayer in the Gethsemani, and became conscious that God had really forsaken him. His "why did you forsake me?" is very common to anyone at end of his or her life. The truth is that Jesus never meant to die for the sins of any one. So, the idea was born in the Christian Theology to promote Replacement Theology.
Ben

Daily stresses caused by events beyond our control make us feel that the world is crashing down around us, and at times of anguish we think that even God has abandoned us. This must have been the thought that went through Jesus’ mind when he uttered, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”
Furthermore, the prophet Isaiah gives us a graphic picture of what the Lord Jesus accomplished with the full knowledge and approval of God, for the law had to be fulfilled in order to reverse what Adam did. In this case there was no man on earth who could do that, therefore Jesus was made flesh and in so doing He was made sin, rendering Himself as a substitute guilt offering In other words, He stood in for mankind, for we read in Isaiah’s 53:10-12:

10) “But the Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilty offering, He will see His offspring; He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11) As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; by His knowledge the righteous One, My servant, will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.

12) Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.”

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben Masada;



Daily stresses caused by events beyond our control make us feel that the world is crashing down around us, and at times of anguish we think that even God has abandoned us. This must have been the thought that went through Jesus’ mind when he uttered, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”
Furthermore, the prophet Isaiah gives us a graphic picture of what the Lord Jesus accomplished with the full knowledge and approval of God, for the law had to be fulfilled in order to reverse what Adam did. In this case there was no man on earth who could do that, therefore Jesus was made flesh and in so doing He was made sin, rendering Himself as a substitute guilt offering In other words, He stood in for mankind, for we read in Isaiah’s 53:10-12:

10) “But the Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilty offering, He will see His offspring; He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11) As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; by His knowledge the righteous One, My servant, will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.

12) Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.”

Isaiah 53:11,12 has nothing to do with Jesus, and you know it. That was Israel being sacrificed for the MANY of Judah. If you insist on assuming that's about Jesus, so he sacrificed for many and not for all of us. Therefore, it makes no sense at all. Isaiah 53 is about the two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. Keep reading:

Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David


The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the dramatic epic of two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. The drama that culminated in the "death" of Messiah ben Joseph for the sins of Messiah ben David. Properly speaking, Messiah ben Joseph is Ephraim or Israel, the Ten Tribes of the Northern Kingdom. And Messiah ben David is Judah, the Southern Kingdom.

The sins of Judah had filled the Divine cup, and in God's judgment, the day had arrived for the removal of Judah. (Isa. 9:8) But according to I Kings 11:36, God had promised David that Judah, whose Tribe he had come from, would stay as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. Therefore, according to Isaiah 9:8, the final judgment that was supposed to come upon Judah fell upon Israel instead, and Messiah ben Joseph had to go instead of Judah, or Messiah ben David.

But Isaiah says in 53:9 that the Suffering Servant was without guile, and sinless. That's exactly what Israel was: Pure of the sins he died for, since they were the sins of Judah and not his. Messiah ben Joseph therefore, did not die for his sins but for the sins of Messiah ben David. Therefore, Israel was removed because of the sins of another. He was pierced so to speak, by the sins of Judah. The sacrifice of Israel or Messiah ben Joseph meant the salvation of Judah or Messiah ben David. That's why Zechariah in 12:10 says that they (Judah) shall look upon him (Israel) whom they (Judah) had pierced with their sins, and mourn for him (Israel) as the one who mourns for his firstborn.

Now, let me explain by way of an analogy how Israel, or Messiah ben Joseph, who was the Suffering Servant died innocent of the sins of Judah or Messiah ben David:

"A" and "B". "A" has committed a crime punishable with death, and "B", by mistake was condemned for that crime. It doesn't matter how evil is "B" in his life or how bad are his sins. The point is that he was condemned to die for the crime of "A". Therefore "B" was killed innocent and pure of the crimes and sins of "A". "A" got saved by the death of "B". So, "B" was the Suffering Servant that brought salvation to "A". Now matching the analogy to reality, "A" was Judah that pierced "B" with his crimes and sins.

Now, with the removal of Messiah ben Joseph, according to Psalm 78:67-70, Messiah be David occupied the place of Messiah ben Joseph, but as the Triumphant Servant with reference to the rest of Mankind, because of God's promise to Noah that humanity would never be destroyed again in an universal manner. (Gen. 8:21) The People-redeemer was the pledge and on his way in the near future with the choice of Abraham through Isaac. That's what sustains the world and allows it to keep going. Now, there is a small detail worthy keeping in mind. The blood of the Suffering Servant was shed once and for all. Now, Mankind is kept safe with the existence of Judah, the Triumphant Servant, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37.

Ben

 

[javajo]

...we are saved by His teachings...not His death.

This is my belief:

Jesus shed his blood to pay for our sins. He said so himself:

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mathew 26:28

Since the penalty of sin is death, Jesus died and in so doing paid the penalty for all the sins of all the world once and for all. This means the penalty for all our sins--past, present and future has been paid by Jesus. Once we accept this gift of love, then we are no longer under condemnation, but are passed from death to life.

 

[free spirit]

Isaiah 53:11,12 has nothing to do with Jesus, and you know it. That was Israel being sacrificed for the MANY of Judah. If you insist on assuming that's about Jesus, so he sacrificed for many and not for all of us. Therefore, it makes no sense at all. Isaiah 53 is about the two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. Keep reading:

Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David


The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the dramatic epic of two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. The drama that culminated in the "death" of Messiah ben Joseph for the sins of Messiah ben David. Properly speaking, Messiah ben Joseph is Ephraim or Israel, the Ten Tribes of the Northern Kingdom. And Messiah ben David is Judah, the Southern Kingdom.

The sins of Judah had filled the Divine cup, and in God's judgment, the day had arrived for the removal of Judah. (Isa. 9:8) But according to I Kings 11:36, God had promised David that Judah, whose Tribe he had come from, would stay as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. Therefore, according to Isaiah 9:8, the final judgment that was supposed to come upon Judah fell upon Israel instead, and Messiah ben Joseph had to go instead of Judah, or Messiah ben David.

But Isaiah says in 53:9 that the Suffering Servant was without guile, and sinless. That's exactly what Israel was: Pure of the sins he died for, since they were the sins of Judah and not his. Messiah ben Joseph therefore, did not die for his sins but for the sins of Messiah ben David. Therefore, Israel was removed because of the sins of another. He was pierced so to speak, by the sins of Judah. The sacrifice of Israel or Messiah ben Joseph meant the salvation of Judah or Messiah ben David. That's why Zechariah in 12:10 says that they (Judah) shall look upon him (Israel) whom they (Judah) had pierced with their sins, and mourn for him (Israel) as the one who mourns for his firstborn.

Now, let me explain by way of an analogy how Israel, or Messiah ben Joseph, who was the Suffering Servant died innocent of the sins of Judah or Messiah ben David:

"A" and "B". "A" has committed a crime punishable with death, and "B", by mistake was condemned for that crime. It doesn't matter how evil is "B" in his life or how bad are his sins. The point is that he was condemned to die for the crime of "A". Therefore "B" was killed innocent and pure of the crimes and sins of "A". "A" got saved by the death of "B". So, "B" was the Suffering Servant that brought salvation to "A". Now matching the analogy to reality, "A" was Judah that pierced "B" with his crimes and sins.

Now, with the removal of Messiah ben Joseph, according to Psalm 78:67-70, Messiah be David occupied the place of Messiah ben Joseph, but as the Triumphant Servant with reference to the rest of Mankind, because of God's promise to Noah that humanity would never be destroyed again in an universal manner. (Gen. 8:21) The People-redeemer was the pledge and on his way in the near future with the choice of Abraham through Isaac. That's what sustains the world and allows it to keep going. Now, there is a small detail worthy keeping in mind. The blood of the Suffering Servant was shed once and for all. Now, Mankind is kept safe with the existence of Judah, the Triumphant Servant, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37.

Ben

The truth is that your rabbis guilty of the death of the Messiah decidet to promote Replacement Theology. The existence of Judah doesn't save anyone not even its own people. Sorry but you are believing a lie Ben.

 

[Ben Masada]

The truth is that your rabbis guilty of the death of the Messiah decidet to promote Replacement Theology. The existence of Judah doesn't save anyone not even its own people. Sorry but you are believing a lie Ben.

Read Galatians 4:21-31 and see who fabricated the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology if not himself. Besides, our Rabbis never had anything to do with the death of Jesus. This false accusation of deicide has been the root of all Antisemitism throughout the History of Christianity.
Ben

 

[Thorwald Johansen]

Here is what happened for Jesus to come to that conclusion that God had really forsaken him. Just the night before, he had spent the whole night praying so that God helped him not to have to drink of that cup. It means that Jesus was not willing to walk he via dolorosa. Luke says that he prayed down to the sweat of blood. He didn't want to die on the cross. But it was too late; the soldiers were at the gate of the Gethsemani. When Jesus realized that he was wasting his time, he said, "be Thy will done NOT MINE. It means that he went to the cross against his will. So, when hanging from his cross, he was reminded of the night before in prayer in the Gethsemani, and became conscious that God had really forsaken him. His "why did you forsake me?" is very common to anyone at end of his or her life. The truth is that Jesus never meant to die for the sins of any one. So, the idea was born in the Christian Theology to promote Replacement Theology.
Ben

I have no idea, how you came to this conclusion. It is not backed up by scripture. It is your own interpretation. Jesus had the power to call upon the angels of heaven, if He so desired. His JOB was to provide a sacrifice for humanity. His prayers in the garden, to The Father, were simply to see if He could be spared the death on the cross. Once Jesus knew that He must continue, and be crucified, He did so, in obedience to The Father. His crying out on the cross has no 'link' to His prior prayers in the garden. Jesus went to the cross 'in faith'. He went to the cross believing what The Father had told Him (ie. That He had the power to give up His life and take it back again.). He must have tried to do this, and nothing happened.

 

[Thief]

This is my belief:

Jesus shed his blood to pay for our sins. He said so himself:

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mathew 26:28

Since the penalty of sin is death, Jesus died and in so doing paid the penalty for all the sins of all the world once and for all. This means the penalty for all our sins--past, present and future has been paid by Jesus. Once we accept this gift of love, then we are no longer under condemnation, but are passed from death to life.

The high lighted portion is a metaphor not to be taken literally.
Scapegoating doesn't work.

The same statement has turned into a sales pitch and is used by those too lazy to learn the parables.

If His death was the point of it all...then His life...and His teachings mean nothing.

 

[free spirit]

Read Galatians 4:21-31 and see who fabricated the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology if not himself.

I am sorry but I see in these scriptures that there are two kind of believers: those who believe in the spirit and they are free; and those who follow the law, they are slaves to the law. So what do you see in those scriptures?

Besides, our Rabbis never had anything to do with the death of Jesus. This false accusation of deicide has been the root of all Antisemitism throughout the History of Christianity.
Ben

So you say: Yes it is hard to come to terms with that terrible truth. So who was resposible for the death of Jesus?

 

[smokydot]

If His death was the point of it all...then His life...and His teachings mean nothing.

Who made that rule?

His life does not atone for sin. . .his teaching reveals the nature of, and his life fulfills, God's promise of a new covenant.
There is only one atonement for sin in God's economy. . .a perfect sacrifice without spot or blemish. No other is given by God in his Word written.
He was the High Priest who offered the once-for-all perfect sacrifice of himself, whose blood cleanses from all sin, according to God's requirement,
just as the blood of the OT sacrifice cleansed the sacrificial altar from the sin laid on it by the sacrificial animal, which was bearing the sin of the one who offered it.
His sacrificial death is the atonement revealed in the OT and required by God for the sin of those who believe in his only begotten Son.

That is the undeniable testimony of the Word of God written in the NT letter to the Hebrews. . .which testimony some consider to be without wisdom and merely a rant.