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My God Why have you forsaken me

idav

Being
Premium Member
I am not entirely convinced that Jesus was in fact the son of God. Heck, I'm not convinced there is a god. Is it okay if we swing this discussion into the existence of God?
There is the possibility that the jesus and the people really expected something to happen and the words of jesus and the onlookers waiting for the son of man to come may have been sorely disappointed. There is the possibility that jesus failed and his followers tried to cover it up. Maybe gods wrath has been put on hold for a couple more millenia.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
To make a point?

"god is no respecter of persons"

we have matthew and mark, 2 gospels written for a jewish audience that depict jesus saying "why have you forsaken me". in both of these jewish accounts he's quiet, those being crucified even "reviled him" while in luke he has this nice conversation with one of them saying:
43... “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

2 irreconcilable accounts...
the time mark and matthew were written was right in the face of the jewish revolt and the destruction of the temple...it was a way for them to reconcile why god forsook the children of israel

matthew 27
45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”[k]
47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, “This Man is calling for Elijah!” 48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink.
49 The rest said, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him.”
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

mark
15:33 Now when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”[f]
35 Some of those who stood by, when they heard that, said, “Look, He is calling for Elijah!” 36 Then someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink, saying, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to take Him down.”
37 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.

in luke he says...
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” psalm 31:5

the context of this psalm is:
1 In you, LORD, I have taken refuge;
let me never be put to shame;
deliver me in your righteousness.
2 Turn your ear to me,
come quickly to my rescue;
be my rock of refuge,
a strong fortress to save me.
3 Since you are my rock and my fortress,
for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
4 Keep me free from the trap that is set for me,
for you are my refuge.
5 Into your hands I commit my spirit;
deliver me, LORD, my faithful God.


quite a contrast compared to the scene described in mark and matthew...where he is pretty quiet and confused, due to the nature of the question, "why have you forsaken me?"

and in john the scene looks like this...

19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing[e] that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

so here we got mark and matthew as jewish accounts written for a jewish audience
luke's account extends the invitation of salvation to a greek roman audience
and then we have john who places jesus in a spiritual light and concentrates on the concept of life after death, since all of his disciples died and christ never came back...
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
I wasn't aware that the other account had jesus quoting a different Psalm. That is interesting, I'll need to look a bit more at their context later.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
we have matthew and mark, 2 gospels written for a jewish audience that depict jesus saying "why have you forsaken me". in both of these jewish accounts he's quiet, those being crucified even "reviled him" while in luke he has this nice conversation with one of them saying:
43... “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

2 irreconcilable accounts...
the time mark and matthew were written was right in the face of the jewish revolt and the destruction of the temple...it was a way for them to reconcile why god forsook the children of israel

matthew 27
45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”[k]
47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, “This Man is calling for Elijah!” 48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink.
49 The rest said, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him.”
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

mark
15:33 Now when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”[f]
35 Some of those who stood by, when they heard that, said, “Look, He is calling for Elijah!” 36 Then someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink, saying, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to take Him down.”
37 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.

in luke he says...
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” psalm 31:5

the context of this psalm is:
1 In you, LORD, I have taken refuge;
let me never be put to shame;
deliver me in your righteousness.
2 Turn your ear to me,
come quickly to my rescue;
be my rock of refuge,
a strong fortress to save me.
3 Since you are my rock and my fortress,
for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
4 Keep me free from the trap that is set for me,
for you are my refuge.
5 Into your hands I commit my spirit;
deliver me, LORD, my faithful God.


quite a contrast compared to the scene described in mark and matthew...where he is pretty quiet and confused, due to the nature of the question, "why have you forsaken me?"

and in john the scene looks like this...

19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing[e] that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

so here we got mark and matthew as jewish accounts written for a jewish audience
luke's account extends the invitation of salvation to a greek roman audience
and then we have john who places jesus in a spiritual light and concentrates on the concept of life after death, since all of his disciples died and christ never came back...

All of that quoting led you to this conclusion?

The concept of life after death is something you understand?
and yet you don't belief?
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am not entirely convinced that Jesus was in fact the son of God. Heck, I'm not convinced there is a god. Is it okay if we swing this discussion into the existence of God?

I would discuss it with you via private messaging, due to it being off topic.

Blessings, AJ
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
the same knowledge and understanding that would lead people to do horrific acts in the name of their god...?

I can not judge God by what mankind does, but I can judge what mankind does whether it be good or evil. Notice the words "what mankind does" verses judging mankind.

It is each persons responsibility to seek out truth and sometimes are led astray by their shallowness of true knowledge and understanding.

That we have no control over. However, we do have the responsibility as people who understand to do good, verses evil, to present it as an option.

My presentation is that God is our savior and comforter in spite of what trials, tribulations and world conditions we endure.

Belief in God, in my own life, has been nothing but amazingly beneficial. Especially when times, of trials, sorrows, and sufferings have kept me at peace, calm and hopeful.

Blessings, AJ
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
if it walks like a duck...



where have i stated that?
everyone is vulnerable to a plethora of irrational ideas.

That would explain your digressions of questions.

You've been here long enough.
I thought by now your rebuttal techniques would improve.

Instead you seek the most long winded path, and redirection...
hoping your 'opponent' will simply go do something else.
Let's not forget your crutches....
And when you lose one you pick up another.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
That would explain your digressions of questions.

You've been here long enough.
I thought by now your rebuttal techniques would improve.

Instead you seek the most long winded path, and redirection...
hoping your 'opponent' will simply go do something else.
Let's not forget your crutches....
And when you lose one you pick up another.

then you are willing to concede that faith is irrational?
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
then what's the point in subjective belief?>>>waitasec

That's the beauty of the of subjective belief!

You see, because of our being created in the flesh we are limited to our own thoughts and wishes.

Its is our free will that we needed saving from.

Everybody is free to believe what they want.

That places us all in situation where we, of ourselves, can do nothing about effecting a change in our fallen state, or as I understand it spiritual death.

Only God Himself as creator can save us, that simple.

And that He did, is doing and will continue to do as each new generation is born.

Of all our abilities, faith in God is the only vehicle by which we can reach God's saving grace.

For some of us, we have reached that point in the now by a rebirth of our dead spiritual condition which doomed us from the beginning.

If, many don't come to that point because of the differences in beliefs, they will come to it when at their departure from this world they will meet, face to face, the God who has saved them.

Meantime, this world is not geared for heavenly occupation, but for fleshly occupation. Yet, we can access heavenly benefits while we still live in the flesh.

Why is it the present condition affecting all of mankind?

Because Jesus at the cross was forsaken, just as the the people of Israel where forsaken in favor of including the whole of humanity, Jesus paid the ultimate price as if it were our own.

There are many verses eluding to that here's one: Mic 4:1 But (1)in the last days(2)it shall come to pass, that (3)the mountain of the house of the LORD (4)shall be established (5)in the top of the mountains, and it (6)shall be exalted above the hills; and (7)people shall flow unto it.

1. in the last days= The beginning really, for it is the end at the cross and the beginning at Jesus' resurrection.

2. it shall come to pass,= Jesus must be forsaken, meaning it must be done.

3. the mountain of the house of the LORD =Jesus came to build the Father's mountain,(authority) as the house of the Lord. (A new Jerusalem = spiritual one)

4.it shall be established = at the cost of being forsaken, at the cost of making the nation Israel the second.

5. in the top of the mountains,= see, the Fathers mountains were already established through Israel and the Commandments. But atop of those mountains, the fathers mountains, the power of authority of Israel, Jesus reestablishes a new mountain, a new house of which there shall be no end.

6.shall be exalted above the hills = like as in the mountains in number 5 above, the hills also have the same meanings, except it seems that there are more hills than mountains as powers of authority, of which a mountain being above the hills in height and stature, shall be exulted above them all.
The words "King of the Jews" on the crosses plague officially, signifies that point.
Jesus was a prince and at His coronation, the crown of thorns, the nails through His hands, ends the first and ushers in as King of the second.

7. people shall flow unto it. = how conveniently it being the number 7 of the series.
When it says people "shall" flow unto it, means that the work of God in saving humanity has been accomplished, thus He rests from all His works.

People shall flow to it means that God will draw all man unto Himself.

There, just in one verse I explained the whole works of God, as given in the whole of the scriptures in the bible.

Unfortunately, it can not be made easy to see, otherwise, mankind would stop seeking and stop generating good in a world of vanity.

Blessings, AJ
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
That's the beauty of the of subjective belief!

You see, because of our being created in the flesh we are limited to our own thoughts and wishes.

Its is our free will that we needed saving from.
hold it right there bub.
if your saving yourself from your own free will thats one thing, but to control the will of others because a subjective understanding of what one believes is godswill is entirely another...

Everybody is free to believe what they want.
apparently not in theocratic countries....
 
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