Noah's Ark

[Link]

origin of the Sumerian myth

Which could've been an exaggeration of a local event.

 

[christos]

I can only speak what I know of. Nuh (a) was sent to his people and they perished. It doesn't say he was sent to the whole world but it's possible the world was localized in Africa and not spread at this point. The other places could've faced floods of other times, when other Messengers were sent to those places.

Ok well if you mean world as in, all people, then yes at some point in time all people would have been localised in Africa, waaaaay before this impact and waaaaaay before any ability to write or put together religious texts

 

[christos]

Which could've been an exaggeration of a local event.

Could be which is why I stated it may have also just have been written about the Iraqi flood plain, a local and regular event

 

[Link]

Ok well if you mean world as in, all people, then yes at some point in time all people would have been localised in Africa, waaaaay before this impact and waaaaaay before any ability to write or put together religious texts

Writing took place on animal skin before paper. It doesn't need ink.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A local flood that happened worldwide…

Hmmmm

So the ice caps melted
The oceans rose 400ft and only some localised area flooded…

That’s just disingenuous to avoid the possible link between a natural event and the origin of the Sumerian myth

The rising of sea level does not qualify as a flood. In a flood the water has to go both ways. Also, though there was an average sea level rise of 1 cm. per year, it did get as high as 20 cm a year. That means that over five years it would be a meter higher. That is far far faster than what we have today, but in a time of rather primitive buildings at the most people would have to rebuild a bit further back from the oceans. That is hardly a "flood" either:

Ice Sheets and Sea Level in Earth's Past

Past ice sheets have retreated rapidly, raising global sea level at rates >1 cm per year, with marine ice sheets collapsing and terrestrial ice sheets retreating in a more gradual fashion.

www.nature.com

 

[christos]

Writing took place on animal skin before paper. It doesn't need ink.

Yeah but not 100,000+ years ago when humans were localised in Africa

 

[Link]

Yeah but not 100,000+ years ago when humans were localised in Africa

It did. Some cultures were more oral memorizers of their "sacred writings" or "songs" and relied less on it, but writing is ancient as speech.

 

[christos]

The rising of sea level does not qualify as a flood. In a flood the water has to go both ways. Also, though there was an average sea level rise of 1 cm. per year, it did get as high as 20 cm a year. That means that over five years it would be a meter higher. That is far far faster than what we have today, but in a time of rather primitive buildings at the most people would have to rebuild a bit further back from the oceans. That is hardly a "flood" either:

Ice Sheets and Sea Level in Earth's Past

Past ice sheets have retreated rapidly, raising global sea level at rates >1 cm per year, with marine ice sheets collapsing and terrestrial ice sheets retreating in a more gradual fashion.

www.nature.com

What about 121.96 meter change in as little as 50 to 100 years, is that considered a flood?

As the definition of flood clearly states: an overflowing and covering of land that is dry NOT water that flows in and then recedes

 

[christos]

It did. Some cultures were more oral memorizers of their "sacred writings" or "songs" and relied less on it, but writing is ancient as speech.

That may be the case
Absolutely yeah

I haven’t seen any 100,000 year old writings BUT perhaps writings of done on animal skins have all been lost, so I accept your thinking, and seems perfectly logical to me

So we’re sort of agreeing on one thing here also, that obviously songs and stories were largely passed down by word of mouth etc

How robust is that I wonder?

IF, there was some cataclysm, during human history, 12,000 to 10,000 years ago, would those events, have been robustly passed down generation to generation to then be inspiration for the flood myth?

What’s your view on that?

 

[Link]

That may be the case
Absolutely yeah

I haven’t seen any 100,000 year old writings BUT perhaps writings of done on animal skins have all been lost, so I accept your thinking, and seems perfectly logical to me

So we’re sort of agreeing on one thing here also, that obviously songs and stories were largely passed down by word of mouth etc

How robust is that I wonder?

IF, there was some cataclysm, during human history, 12,000 to 10,000 years ago, would those events, have been robustly passed down generation to generation to then be inspiration for the flood myth?

What’s your view on that?

It's more robust then writing since writing you have few who can do it and less transmission. I don't know enough about the flood and all the debate about it to be honest. I think it's unrealistic all animals would be collected world wide. Local, it make sense, a pair of each genetic variants of each species. You can't just have two of each species either. This would genetically destroy a species even if he picked the best genes. You always need variation, which is why it makes more sense, there were two of each type of kind of genes in each species.

 

[christos]

It's more robust then writing since writing you have few who can do it and less transmission. I don't know enough about the flood and all the debate about it to be honest. I think it's unrealistic all animals would be collected world wide. Local, it make sense, a pair of each genetic variants of each species. You can't just have two of each species either. This would genetically destroy a species even if he picked the best genes. You always need variation, which is why it makes more sense, there were two of each type of kind of genes in each species.

I agree with everything there

I think the story is most likely based on a local village, maybe a man rounding up local animals, warning of a flood

But I just wonder wether the flood aspect is some shadow of a previous event, say the YDP or it is simply just inspired by the Iraqi flood plain

 

[Quagmire]

If you believe/accept the story of Noah's ark, how did Noah get from Mesopotamia(modern Iraq) to the Arctic to get polar bears for example?

Maybe it was all still Pangea at the time (?)

(I think I'd make a halfway decent apologist).

 

[Valjean]

Maybe it was all still Pangea at the time (?)

(I think I'd make a halfway decent apologist).

There were no humans at this time.

 

[We Never Know]

There were no humans at this time.

An apologist might say 'no humans that we have found"

 

[YoursTrue]

I can only speak what I know of. Nuh (a) was sent to his people and they perished. It doesn't say he was sent to the whole world but it's possible the world was localized in Africa and not spread at this point. The other places could've faced floods of other times, when other Messengers were sent to those places.

Anyway, the Bible says that God felt it necessary to do away with many people. And of course Noah and his family had children after that and things became very bad again but with a different theme.

 

[Audie]

Ok some links…

And it’s estimated to have been a 400ft increase in global ocean depth not 300ft, my bad and the changes occurred in some 100 years

Younger Dryas | Definition, Causes, & Termination

Younger Dryas, cool period between roughly 12,900 and 11,600 years ago that disrupted the prevailing warming trend in the Northern Hemisphere at the end of the Pleistocene. During this period, parts of Europe and North America returned to ice age conditions; other parts of the Northern...

www.britannica.com

The Younger Dryas Glacial Map - AntarcticGlaciers.org

The Younger Dryas Glacial Map is an interactive map for all the glacial landforms dating to the Younger Dryas (Loch Lomond Stadial) glaciation of Britain

www.antarcticglaciers.org

https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-11/3%20The%20Younger%20Dryas%20-FINAL%20NOV%20%281%29.pdf

Discover How The Younger Dryas Flood Shaped Prehistoric Earth

The idea of a biblical flood was dismissed by scientists as religious nonsense. One scientist, however, set out to prove that the evidence for the Younger Dryas Flood explained how the North American Ice Sheet melted so suddenly at the end of the last ice age. To date, no other theory can...

humanoriginproject.com

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0800560105

The Younger Dryas impact event in focus - Updated | The World of Animals

Introduction --- Fingerprint O

theworldofanimals.proboards.com

Huge crater discovered in Greenland from impact that rocked Northern Hemisphere

A survey of ice in Greenland has uncovered evidence suggesting a kilometer-wide iron asteroid slammed into that island, perhaps as recently as 12,000 years ago during the end of the Pleistocene. The resulting 19-mile-wide impact crater has remained hidden under a half-mile-thick ice sheet until...

phys.org

The claim that sea level rose 400 ft
in a hundred years is a response to
" floods don't shift layers of soil", and,
your "400 in 100" is confirmed in that gish?

 

[Audie]

What about 121.96 meter change in as little as 50 to 100 years, is that considered a flood?

You ask "What about" something that didn't happen?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You ask "What about" something that didn't happen?

Usually we call it garbage, or the like.

The highest estimate that I found was 20 cm in a year, and I may have misread that article. Wikipedia puts it at four to six cm years maximum. Even with my very high estimate that would be 20 meters in 100 years. That would not qualify as a flood.

 

[Audie]

The highest estimate that I found was 20 cm in a year, and I may have misread that article. Wikipedia puts it at four to six cm years maximum. Even with my very high estimate that would be 20 meters in 100 years. That would not qualify as a flood.

"121.96 meters" is just too vague. I need four
decimal places

No reputable source of data about sea level
variation over the past 20K years gives anything
resembling the claims our hero of the flood asserts.

You take it on if it suits you. I'm not playing dueling websites with anyone who can't tell pop sci w agenda
from something sensible like usgs, noah etc.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"121.96 meters" is just too vague. I need four
decimal places

No reputable source of data about sea level
variation over the past 20K years gives anything
resembling the claims our hero of the flood asserts.

You take it on if it suits you. I'm not playing dueling websites with anyone who can't tell pop sci w agenda
from something sensible like usgs, noah etc.

I missed that and shouldn't have. I am old enough to have been witness to a new problem in education. When I went to university calculators had just come out. As a result students were more than happy to help their physics and chemistry professors with "answers". Unfortunately they would to often say something like "7.2050632 meters per second" and the professor would have tell them that was too many numbers. The accuracy of your answer cannot exceed the accuracy of your data as yo well know. But we did not know then. It was even worse if the student had a ten digit calculator or more.