Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
There are videos and testimonies that I posted earlier (#81) of people doing just that. I have no idea what their names are. And yes, I hate them, they need to be stopped.
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Nonsense
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
OK. Next topic! Since you have no person to condemn for 'kidnapping, murder or rape' then you have wasted life begging for the affirmations.
I am watching a senator state on CNN that civilians should not be killed from retaliatory strikes.
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
OMFG! You want an actual name? You are denying what the news is reporting. You are just playing games.
I agree with that. Israel has warned civilians in the past before they bomb a military target. HAMAS puts their military leaders in public spaces and below hospitals to encourage civilian losses. They even try to block the warnings from Israel of the incoming attack.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
OK...
Irgun are zionists, but zionists are not irgun.
A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.
OH! You're also using a non-standard defintion of zionism.
It's OK. I don't want to argue with you. I gave you a link, you don't want to click on it. I think I understand your point of view.
It's basically accusing all zionists of being terrorists even though it's only a small group. It's pretty common. I'm not sure why you're taking that position considering this: ( see below )
It seems like you're taking an extremist position. But I honestly only know the outlines of the events that lead to the Israeli war of Independence. If you are motivated to supply some links or other resources, I will certainly read them with an open mind.
Thank you,
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
OK, so it makes sense that they needed a nation, right?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Just a few years later:
The Mandate for Palestine was a League of Nations mandate for British administration of the territories of Palestine and Transjordan, both of which had been conceded by the Ottoman Empire following the end of World War I in 1918.
In Palestine, the Mandate required Britain to put into effect the Balfour Declaration's "national home for the Jewish people" alongside the Palestinian Arabs,
Mandate for Palestine - Wikipedia
So, the Zionists had an absolute right to migrate there per the League of Nations.
The Palestinians were not the only resistance to the new state of Israel .Just a few years later:
The Mandate for Palestine was a League of Nations mandate for British administration of the territories of Palestine and Transjordan, both of which had been conceded by the Ottoman Empire following the end of World War I in 1918.In Palestine, the Mandate required Britain to put into effect the Balfour Declaration's "national home for the Jewish people" alongside the Palestinian Arabs,Mandate for Palestine - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
So, the Zionists had an absolute right to migrate there per the League of Nation
Gamal Abdel Nasser, Arabic Jamāl ʿAbd al-Nāṣīr, (born January 15, 1918, Alexandria, Egypt—died September 28, 1970, Cairo), Egyptian army officer, prime minister (1954–56), and then president (1956–70) of Egypt who became a controversial leader of the Arab world, creating the short-lived United Arab Republic (1958–61), twice fighting wars with Israel (1956, 1967), and engaging in such inter-Arab policies as mediating the Jordanian civil war (1970).
Jimmy
Veteran Member
So it’s come to my enlightenment that only way the fighting will probably stop is if something really really really bad happens but i know the world is going to end before that so that’s a good thing. I’ll just pray for em in the meantime. Peace out. I’m done giving thought to this.
Better than blanket hate, as you require. I dont like Hamas. Is that clear or do you want a full blown affirmation as you create them?
I deny news claims constantly. And to be clear not one suggests that hamas is raping a single person.
Maybe but I watched a doctor just state that they have not been given any such warning.
I remember those claims a long time ago but not during this event.
Of course as you are the last word and I must comply right?
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Many were both. The terrorist group irgun no longer exist and most became IDF post UN res 181. Why are you imposing such a twist?
Where did I define the term. Appears that you are needing it, not me.
I rarely ever click on a link but I do check sourcing and material. Who ever said 'all zionist' are terrorists? Perhaps Hamas?
Zionism is a migration pursuit. Some folk consider Palestine as zion (holy land). But I am better than that. Zion is the mount/fortress, a religious holy site.
The extremist are fighting. I dont have an extremist bone in my body. Likewise, it's rude that I even have to defend myself against such stupid accusations.
I can see that. A simple outline, a narrative.
The definitions have changed drastically. The mandate was not created for zionism. But I did read the am to see what you are chanting. After reading the wiki pages on the topic, I feel like I have become damaged with bias. I should prepare myself to read a new Torah soon. With line items suggesting that Pharaoh gave the New kingdom to the so called slaves. And the soldiers were carrying food and supplies for them. Did you catch that? That land mass was the New Kingdom of Egypt, during the very period many call the exodus. The joke is, what's an exodus, to leave egypt to go to egypts New Kingdom.
I have been reading on this topic for over 50 yrs and remember a completely different explanation on the Mandate and how the US sided with the jewish community because the british were not cooperative and the US could use the location to have a presence in the ME. Our citizen are who gave the zionist and irgun the weapons to fight against the british and chase them out of palestine.
IN fact, when I was a child I remember saying 'why dont we just nuke them camel jockeys and be done with it?' My father heard me say that and smacked me in the head. He told me, 'do not take sides on that issue without comprehending what you are talking about'. That is what caused me to learn, read books and understand well before internet. I used to go to the library, just to dig up old newspaper articles and learned how to do research before I was 16 yrs old. Now most anyone can rewrite definitions on wiki and online as long as they are pro Israel.
There is so much to learn regarding that location and the 70+ years of controversy.
For example: lookup Dimona and Kennedy. See if you can find the tapes (recordings) of how he felt about that issue. He was dead within 1 week after those recordings were made.
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
Never said anything about blanket hate. I was specific who I hated.
Like these people. The Israelis are not doing these things.
Israel at war with Hamas after surprise attacks, around 1,000 Israelis dead
After Hamas launched the biggest attack on Israel in years, nearly 1,600 have been killed and thousands more wounded with a barrage of rockets as gunfights are reported in Sderot and other cities in southern Israel.
www.foxnews.com
Reporters with i24 News toured the "scene of devastation" in the community of about 700, where soldiers worked to remove bodies of victims who were brutally murdered in their homes. Some soldiers said they found babies with their heads cut off, according to i24 News.
Yeah, I hate these people. Not a blanket statement but I hate the people that kill babies and cut their heads off. And sorry I don't know their names.
What is your reason for disbelieving the claims of eyewitnesses and news organizations? There are eyewitnesses reporting they raped women at the music festival.
Then name the who. I asked you that before and you mentioned something about a 'god' but previously claimed to be atheist.
No the israelis are now blowing up buildings in retaliation. There will never be an actual body count now. I will never approve of indiscriminate retaliation, no matter the side.
sad to read no matter which side publlishes
" I hate these people" is a blanket statement.
Did you see the acts of rape? No news has reported any such acts. Only you are writing them and I DO NOT trust you. I am betting that you claim to be atheist and will also claim to be a jew too. It's an oxymoron just to suggest one can be the same.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I did some reading last night. Essentially this "twist" is that modern zionists do not match your depiction. They are not "the first terrorists", and they are not encouraging global migration. Zionism supports the existance of a "Jewish Homeland" in Palestine. The words "Jewish Homeland" are in quotes because there is a significant fluidity and ambiguity in the zionist positions. Positions, plural.
When this fluidity of opinion is not included in these sorts of discussions, I think that it encourages anti-Jewish prejudice.
I recall the words "the first terrorists" and "global migration" being associated with the term "zionist". Yes, it wasn't defined as such, and I'm sorry for using that word "defintion". It was wrong for me to do that. I was in a hurry, and I need to slow down before posting. It was my fault for miscommunicating. Sincerely.
That was how I read it when it was unqualified. I doubt I would be alone in reading it that way. But your clarification is appreciated.
That is not how it is defined. Zionism is only the conviction that a "Jewish Homeland" exists. It has been a long time since I read Theodore Hertzel's actual words, but, my Dad forced me to read them as a child. But, even though I cannot remember Hertzel's precise wording, this idea is reflected in the wikipedia article I brought yesterday regarding the Balfour Declaration. It's the estalishment of a "Jewish Homeland" in Palestine. Those words specifically. This is also included in the wiki arrtcle for "zionism"
Zionism is a nationalist movement that emerged in the 19th century to espouse support for the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition. Following the establishment of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports "the development and protection of the State of Israel".
Zionism - Wikipedia
Establishing a homeland is not global migration. Development and protection is not global migration.
Regarding the religious aspect, I'm not sure if it's relevant to discuss that at this point. Although the current heinous over-reaction of HAMAS does seem to have been triggered by a provocative religious demonstration towards the temple mount.
I'm sorry. You're right. I, myself, over-reacted.
Yes, myself and my spouse are trying to put the pieces together and fill in the border. It's been the nightly discussion recently for obvious reasons. And we want our kids informed as well.
I'm having a hard time following this, but, I appreciate the details from your childhood. That I can certainly understand and follow. As I mentioned above, my Father took my education seriously. And when I was .. umm... not doing well in school, he was the one who took charge of teaching me what it means to be Jewish.
Regarding the bias of wikipedia, or any source, I personally do not find it to be a poison. Judaism, when it is practiced religiously, trains a person not to be damaged by exposure to these things. They make an impression, but that impression is immediately countered with the "what-if-not" scenario. This sort of mindset is what drives people crazy about Judaism, but, in this case, in this context, it is a real asset. My spouse and I are reading Al-Jazeerah and other perspectives which are not-zionist in order to try to figure this out. We are not afraid of someone else's bias. I will go look for the recordings of those tapes, and thank you.
The term is about aliyah. Re: diaspora. The scope that jews were forced out of palestine and should return.
I am enjoying your patience and kindness as many get upset. I love the Jewish mind as they keep the rules by cultural upbringing. I defend Jews and the practicing personal responsibility as a matter of self respect and empathy. I often tell people that I could never understand how anyone could be against or condemn Jews for being Jewish. But I am not happy with how zionism has done so much damage to so many.
Irgun were in fact condemned as terrorists described as a zionist paramilitary of the mandate well before any other within the region.
Here is a clip: "In particular the Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, British, and United States governments;"
Back in 1946
So do I but likewise, The USA is a Jewish Home for more Jews than israel/palestine. I am proud to have known that most of my life.
Yep, zionist and zionism is always being corrected by Jews trying to reduce the ambiguity.
In fact, the first time I heard bad descriptions of zionist/zionist was from Jews in New York
To be against zionism is not against Jews or Judaism. That reality is perhaps why I often bridge Irgun with zionist and even now consider the settlers of the west bank as zionist monsters
That is an example of me falling into the same rabbit hole of combining the 'they' them type of identification. The settlers are causing most of that damage fueling much of the current violence.
You are exhibiting foundations for LOVE and are getting me sappy.
I can consider the USA as a jewish homeland well beyond israel. Here, Jews can be Jewish without having to deal with political BS
I do not actually appreciate Hertzl but I understand how a European could want to live in a secure atmosphere.
He started the zionist org promoting zionism (immigration to palestine)
Sure, immigration to palestine to create an israel.
I know, the irgun "bad guys" became IDF................... again, there is that bridge undesired but well rooted
Perhaps remove the term zionism, as the state has existed for a long time. You keep falling onto the terms, 'establish' and 'development.' But let's be clear the state already exists so now a zionist has no other meaning except to promote 'migration' or as I understand, the 'quest' for that stupid mount (temple)
That is why I have not focused on the requirement of the nut cases to build a temple.
Sure it is............ the term 'zion' is about that location. The settlers and that rabbid glick have been after that location for decades.
Heck the big bibi nutlessyahoo, has a drawing of the wannabe temple behind his desk.
Need I mention the pursuit of the railway construction leading up to the site? They will have to build such a transport system to even move the al aqsa or build the temple
I am against any morons that want to build that stupid thing. The UNESCO has designated the mount as a heritage site and like the illegal occupation of the west bank, it will be against the majority on the earth, including the majority of Jews on the earth.
Sorry, you mentioned that the violence surrounding that location is not important but in reality, it is the focal reason Israel exists within palestine.
Meaning it is a touchy topic for me as it sickens my heart that all of that time of violence and hatred is rooted to a stupid hill and desire for a temple.
I love Judaism for the education on personal responsibility.
It sure would be nice if israel reestablished the integrity of what it means to be Jew.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Of course. Many objected, but it was the concensus of the League of Nations, a unified world collective that the Jewish people needed a homeland. Palestine was split, the Jewish people received a sliver, the remaining larger section was established as "trans-Jordan".
After the Israeli war for indendence the sliver was expanded greatly. Gradually over the years land has been returned making the state of Israel smaller and smaller. What's left is the absolute minimum which is required, absolutley required, to establish a defensible position.
The gaza strip and east Jerusalem are specks on the map, but are close enough to Israel that their annexation makes good paractical sense and from a security point of view. Although throughout all the warfare and cease-fires that have occured over the years there has never been a treaty signed be the opposing leaders regarding this land. This lack of a treaty is the ultimate problem which is perpetuating the conflict.
As the majority of the region were still palestinians. Even the majority of the Jews were/are Arab.
Because israel will not leave jerusalem as an international city. Per the UN res 181 that established israel.
They took the city in retaliation of the 67' preemptive war
But to be very clear israelis will not end or commit to stop the extremist from encroaching on the mount. That location is a huge part of the problem and beyond the oppression of palestinian, is the 'red line' of the ayatollah and hashemite.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Are you sure? Is it global migration? Wouldn't a better word be global opportunity?
Agreed.
Unless / until ritual circumcision and / or ritual slaughter is illegal.
Out of necessity from a specific region. The necessity was expected to be an ongoing problem in diverse locations.
Agreed, but this still isn't zionism.
That would be ideal.
Are you sure they are monsters? Or are they purchasing land legally?
Selling Jerusalem: Middlemen sell Jerusalemite homes to settlers
Al Jazeera investigates claims behind the selling of Palestinian homes in occupied East Jerusalem to Israeli settlers.
I didn't mean to say the violence surrounding the location is not important. This specific conflict where Hamas is not taking innocence hostages and killing innocent people was because of a several hour provocative religious demonstration where Muslims were temporarily forcibly evicted from the area. The Israeli government's actions were barely violent in that case, but it is symbolic of the oppression and eviction of the muslims from their land.
That said, zionism is not about that stupid hill. What you're describing is not zionism, it's "Dati", which is Zionist, but again, Dati to zionist is as square to a rectangle.
tenet of zionism
Funny, as more christians are circumcised here in the USA than all of the Jews on the earth combined
Was is that key. The location already exists and well armed. but we can take a bet: After this last weekend, more Jews will move here to the USA than move into israel.
I know Irgun is not the ism, but they were most definitely 'zionist'
Can you change the daystar TV show and the stop the rabbid that continue selling the zionist movement? It's so bad now that the programs are trying to get christians to give money and visit 'zion'.
Burning homes down and attacking the locals is how that identifier was earned
I watched a palestinian yesterday standing on the rubble of his home that said 'If leave my property, they will say that i have abandoned it, and that is not going to happen'
the word 'zion' is about that stupid hill..... the holy of holies. The idea was learned from the egyptian culture but that is another chapter in which comprehending that Moses was born and raised in egypt. Specifically the house of pharaoh which is how so much culture was assimilated into torah.
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
I did, but the fact that you want an actual names of these people is ridiculous.
I never stated anything about a god. I am an atheist.
Yes they are. It is targeted, but are they not justified in defending themselves? They just wait for more killing from the terrorists?
You took that out of context. You like to play games. Once I said that I followed with who I hate. This is dishonest. Anyone can go look at the post 132 to see that.
There are eyewitness accounts like here:
Survivors of Hamas attack on music festival: Women were raped next to the corpses of their friends
The sudden escalation of tension and conflict between Israel and Palestine has led to many shocking first-hand accounts of violence and suffering. Palestinian terrorist group Ham
www.marca.com
You can actually watch the video of the terrorists parading around a dead naked woman in the back of a truck. I think we are done here. It is obvious you don't think the terrorists are in the wrong.
I am an atheist, I have always said that here and no I am not a Jew.