Oklahoma Republican Doesn't Like That You Can't Hit Kids ...Even Those with Impairments

[Kenny]

Yes but in other conversations @Kenny has admitted to spanking his children. Spanking, out of love, discipline or punishment, IS hitting children.

I disagree. When a child says “He hit me” - it wasn’t a spanking. They aren’t the same.

 

[The Hammer]

I disagree. When a child says “He hit me” - it wasn’t a spanking. They aren’t the same.

They absolutely are. You may disagree and that's fine. But as has been pointed out numerous times before. It IS the same. Psychology, medical research, and child welfare workers all agree. Your personal/biblical opinion holds no weight against fact.

The body and brain does not differentiate. Especially, not as a child. As an adult maybe.

Parents and the Specific Power of the Word "Spank"

Most parents think spanking is less severe than other corporal punishment terms like hitting, and may perpetuate violence as a result.

www.fatherly.com

The Difference Between Spanking And Hitting Is Word Choice

 

[The Hammer]

Physical discipline is harmful and ineffective

A new APA resolution cites evidence that physical punishment such as spanking can cause lasting harm for children.

www.apa.org

"To start, the research finds that hitting children does not teach them about responsibility, conscience development and self-control. "Hitting children does not teach them right from wrong," says Elizabeth Gershoff, PhD, an expert on the effects of corporal punishment on children who provided research for the resolution. "Spanking gets their attention, but they have not internalized why they should do the right thing in the future. They may behave when the adult is there but do whatever they want at other times."

In addition, children learn from watching their parents. Parents who use physical discipline may be teaching their child to resolve conflicts with physical aggression. Researchers found that spanking can elevate a child’s aggression levels as well as diminish the quality of the parent-child relationship. Other studies have documented that physical discipline can escalate into abuse."

 

[Kenny]

They absolutely are. You may disagree and that's fine. But as has been pointed out numerous times before. It IS the same. Psychology, medical research, and child welfare workers all agree. Your personal/biblical opinion holds no weight against fact.

I’m sorry, you may disagree and that is fine. Psychologist disagree on your point and your personal beliefs holds not weight. The debate and reports can go either way.

The body and brain does not differentiate. Especially, not as a child. As an adult maybe.

I disagree. Maybe if you do it wrong, then you would be correct.

Parents and the Specific Power of the Word "Spank"

Most parents think spanking is less severe than other corporal punishment terms like hitting, and may perpetuate violence as a result.

www.fatherly.com

The Difference Between Spanking And Hitting Is Word Choice

Spanking Can Be an Appropriate Form of Child Discipline

We won’t go wrong if we exercise a firm and consistent hand with a soft and loving heart.

time.com

Findings Give Some Support To Advocates of Spanking (Published 2001)

Dr Diana Baumrind, psychologist known for her classic studies of authoritative, authoritarian and permissive styles of child-rearing, contends that social scientists have overstepped evidence in claiming that spanking causes lasting harm to child; says she does not advocate spanking, but that an...

www.nytimes.com

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

They absolutely are. You may disagree and that's fine. But as has been pointed out numerous times before. It IS the same. Psychology, medical research, and child welfare workers all agree. Your personal/biblical opinion holds no weight against fact.

The body and brain does not differentiate. Especially, not as a child. As an adult maybe.

Parents and the Specific Power of the Word "Spank"

Most parents think spanking is less severe than other corporal punishment terms like hitting, and may perpetuate violence as a result.

www.fatherly.com

The Difference Between Spanking And Hitting Is Word Choice

If a child tells me that their parent(s) have hit them, I will call the police and/or CPS to report it. I don't care if the parent(s) use their Christian beliefs or some other excuse to justify themselves. The police and CPS will be involved, and the child will be removed and placed in a safe environment until it is established by CPS, the police, and/or the court that the parent(s) are not a threat to the child and can adequately care for them. The child comes first.

 

[Revoltingest]

And that is my point. You should ask what they think it means and if they agree. Don't assume that it means violence against children, and don't assume that they assume it is violence against children.

And even if they do believe that that means violence against children (and I agree many do interpret it that way), you could perhaps engage on whether or not that is the correct interpretation. That might be just marginally more effective than trying to get them reject the Bible.

I asked.
He will answer as he sees fit.

I am not a Christian, but I am capable of reading a metaphor and understanding it. The shepherds rod is generally used to nudge sheep, to "guide them in the way they should go". I believe that is what the author intended.

I believe my interpretation is the plain, simple reading of the text. And of course many Christians will say that this is not what they were taught. But that is the point, they needed to be taught what the text means, I am just reading it. I know some Christians will respond that you need to be a Christian, "lead by the holy spirit" to interpret the text. Some people can never be reached. But that doesn't mean what I am saying isn't true, or that I shouldn't bother saying it.

And in this specific instance, we have @Kenny, a Christian saying he does not believe in hitting Children. I am not inclined to try to convince him that the Bible indicates otherwise, especially when this passage does not necessarily say that.

I don't try to convince any Christian
what the Bible means.

Let me translate that for you in today’s terms (since we know that the Jewish understanding isn’t “beat the child” and who would know better than the ones to whom scriptures were given to).

First, it doesn’t mean use it every day nor does it say that the rod is the answer to all things. The Bible says that the Word of God is the answer to all things.

Second, it doesn’t say “abuse, beat or hit the child” but rather, when necessary and sparingly, use it if you have to.

Third, it doesn’t say smack or use your hands - hands are for loving and blessing

Fourth, pastors don’t use the rod to beat every sheep or use it every day on a particular sheep.

Lastly, the scriptures doen’t say do it in anger for “Anger doesn’t produce the righteousness of God” - but do it in love.

There world will correct without love and their response will be emotionally hurt-filled because they will correct with anger. If there isn’t a correction that he will hear, he will rob more. Give me the right words to correct him and reach his heart.” (The rod is not an answer it is just a tool) - And somewhere, if words aren’t enough, you use a tool to reinforce your point so that the world doesn’t use their tools to bring correction. And you don’t hit him with anger, you just correct him with love. You don’t beat him with a rod, you reinforce the understanding that robbing has a consequence. Then you forgive, hug each other, and come out of the room as if nothing had happened.

That is a Bible complete interpretation of that scripture when taken as a whole and not reading into it what isn’t there.

This is clearer.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Physical discipline is harmful and ineffective

A new APA resolution cites evidence that physical punishment such as spanking can cause lasting harm for children.

www.apa.org

"To start, the research finds that hitting children does not teach them about responsibility, conscience development and self-control. "Hitting children does not teach them right from wrong," says Elizabeth Gershoff, PhD, an expert on the effects of corporal punishment on children who provided research for the resolution. "Spanking gets their attention, but they have not internalized why they should do the right thing in the future. They may behave when the adult is there but do whatever they want at other times."

In addition, children learn from watching their parents. Parents who use physical discipline may be teaching their child to resolve conflicts with physical aggression. Researchers found that spanking can elevate a child’s aggression levels as well as diminish the quality of the parent-child relationship. Other studies have documented that physical discipline can escalate into abuse."

You've shared these articles in a similar past discussion.

The Effect of Spanking on the Brain

Physical punishment of children: lessons from 20 years of research

 

[The Hammer]

You've shared these articles in a similar past discussion.

The Effect of Spanking on the Brain

Physical punishment of children: lessons from 20 years of research

I know, I'm beating a dead horse. But some things I can't not keep hitting. One of those not being my kid.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

They absolutely are. You may disagree and that's fine. But as has been pointed out numerous times before. It IS the same. Psychology, medical research, and child welfare workers all agree. Your personal/biblical opinion holds no weight against fact.

The body and brain does not differentiate. Especially, not as a child. As an adult maybe.

Parents and the Specific Power of the Word "Spank"

Most parents think spanking is less severe than other corporal punishment terms like hitting, and may perpetuate violence as a result.

www.fatherly.com

The Difference Between Spanking And Hitting Is Word Choice

I also recommend reading this article as well. It explains the negative effects spanking has on children and their parents.

Does Any Good Come From Spanking Children?

Excerpt:

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that parents do not use spanking, hitting, slapping, threatening, insulting, humiliating, or shaming.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe my interpretation is the plain, simple reading of the text.

The plain reading says nothing of a shepherd. It just says rod.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I’m sorry, you may disagree and that is fine. Psychologist disagree on your point and your personal beliefs holds not weight. The debate and reports can go either way.

Psychologists widely, mostly amd largely disagree with you/do not agree with you.

The case against spanking

Physical discipline is slowly declining as some studies reveal lasting harms for children.

www.apa.org

 

[The Hammer]

The plain reading says nothing of a shepherd. It just says rod.

That's because it was implicitly implied 2000 years ago, and we miss that now because it's not ubiquitous anymore.

(My dog tried herding classes, the crook is a tool).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I disagree. When a child says “He hit me” - it wasn’t a spanking. They aren’t the same.

Yes, they absolutely are.
hit /hĭt/ intransitive verb
To come into contact with forcefully; strike.
"The car hit the guardrail."
To cause to come into contact.
"She hit her hand against the wall."
To deal a blow to.
"He hit the punching bag."

spank /spăngk/ intransitive verb
To slap on the buttocks with a flat object or with the open hand, as for punishment.

slap /slăp/ noun A sharp blow made with the open hand or with a flat object; a smack.

See how theres no real difference?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's because it was implicitly implied 2000 years ago, and we miss that now because it's not ubiquitous anymore.

(My dog tried herding classes, the crook is a tool).

Which means it is not the plain and simple reading, which is going strictly by what's there. And that is the interpretation traditionally favored by American Evangelicals. It's just you and the Bible and none of the egghead stuff getting in the way to complicate things amd lead you astray.

 

[The Hammer]

Which means it is not the plain and simple reading, which is going strictly by what's there.

Yeah well literalist readings of any faith Scripture miss the forest for the trees.

 

[fantome profane]

The plain reading says nothing of a shepherd. It just says rod.

Point taken. So you would have to know that the audience this was intended for would have understood it as a metaphor about shepherds.

But if you think that is to much interpretation, and we just need to read the plain text, then I must point out that the text does not say to hit the child with the rod. It doesn't say what to do with the rod, just that you should not spare it. Are you intended to dance with it? Use it to build a shelter? Perhaps use it as some kind of musical instrument? Or maybe just give it to the child? (thanks Pop, I always wanted a rod of my very own.

All I can say is that nowhere does it say to hit the child with the rod.

And I will also point out the in the same verse where it talks about not sparing the rod it says "the unfaithful have an appetite for violence".

 

[Revoltingest]

The plain reading says nothing of a shepherd. It just says rod.

That's the beauty of poetic language that's
been translated thru multiple languages.
One can read what one wants.
For example, a Christian who once worked
for me said that the Bible predicted modern
rocketry & space travel. He had passages to
justify it. What will it predict next....phasers
& tricorders?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But if you think that is to much interpretation, and we just need to read the plain text, then I must point out that the text does not say to hit the child with the rod. It doesn't say what to do with the rod, just that you should not spare it. Are you intended to dance with it? Use it to build a shelter? Perhaps use it as some kind of musical instrument? Or maybe just give it to the child? (thanks Pop, I always wanted a rod of my very own.

Most of that makes no sense in context. Building a shelter or dancing with a rod because your kid broke the rules? Proverbs 13 does, afterall, go on about discipline.

 

[Revoltingest]

Most of that makes no sense in context. Building a shelter or dancing with a rod because your kid broke the rules? Proverbs 13 does, afterall, go on about discipline.

There is no objective way to debate what the Bible
really means. All we can do is discern what Christianity
is by listening to what individual believers say what it
means to them. Then we can learn the specifics of the
diverse subsets.

 

[David1967]

I find that hard to believe {sarcasm}.

Excuse me?