Opinions on Spanking

[Alceste]

Nabbing a bit of a summary from google scholar -

"Many studies conclude that corporal punishment may temporarily suppress undesired behavior of children, but that physical punishment often has unintended and potentially adverse side-effects. For example, CP has been associated with children's increased aggressiveness at home, at school, and in experimental laboratory contexts. Physical punishment has also been associated with a wide variety of psychological and behavioral disorders of children and adults, including anxiety, depression, withdrawal, impaired self-concept, impulsivity, delinquency, substance abuse and maladjustment, to name a few."

"A ...modeling analysis of a sample of 349 youths, aged 9 through 16 in St. Kitts, West Indies, shows that physical punishment by itself does make a modest but significant direct and negative contribution to youths' psychological adjustment. However, Kittitian children also tend to experience themselves to be rejected in direct proportion to the frequency and severity of punishment received. And the more rejected they perceive themselves to be, the more impaired their psychological adjustment tends to be. The direct impact of physical punishment on youths' psychological adjustment in conjunction with the indirect effect, as mediated through perceived caretaker rejection, is substantial."

source

So, Dallas, it seems you're on the right track.

 

[Aquitaine]

So what do you guys suggest as a suitable form of punishment for disobedient children/teenagers exactly?

 

[Aquitaine]

"Many studies conclude that corporal punishment may temporarily suppress undesired behavior of children, but that physical punishment often has unintended and potentially adverse side-effects. For example, CP has been associated with children's increased aggressiveness at home, at school, and in experimental laboratory contexts. Physical punishment has also been associated with a wide variety of psychological and behavioral disorders of children and adults, including anxiety, depression, withdrawal, impaired self-concept, impulsivity, delinquency, substance abuse and maladjustment, to name a few."

C'mon, practically all kids experience things like that whilst growing up, regardless of whether or not they were spanked as children.

 

[Smoke]

Children are born uncivilized and basically unfit for society, and it's the parents' job to civilize them and make them fit for society.

It's pretty clear from observing how many different people bring up their children that it's perfectly possible to bring children up to be disciplined, responsible people without using corporal punishment. It's also pretty clear that people who do use corporal punishment often bring up disciplined, responsible children, too. The question is whether spanking serves that end well, and whether it's the best means to that end.

I think spanking is not the best way to go with discipline. I worry about teaching children that violence (no matter how restrained) is a good way to resolve conflicts. More importantly, I suspect that it teaches the child to internalize the parents' authority more than their values. You must do what I say, not because it's the right thing to do, or because I'm teaching you to make good choices, but because I'm bigger than you and can turn you over my knee. You're teaching your child to think about the immediate consequences of disobedience, but you're not teaching him how to think out more far-reaching consequences or how to make good choices in the first place.

I think spanking makes the parent feel better about asserting his authority and maintaining order, and it probably teaches the child to respect the parent' authority. But I don't think it teaches the child to think very carefully about his actions.

And -- even though there's always somebody who gets offended if you mention training dogs in this context -- I've never had children but I've had a lot of dogs. Dogs do respond to negative reinforcement, but they respond better to positive reinforcement. I've also noticed the same thing as a teacher. My students respond to negative reinforcement, but they respond better to positive reinforcement.

So I don't think spanking is necessarily going to scar a child emotionally, but I think it's the easy way out, and not the best way to teach a child.

Besides, you might get a child like my aunt. My grandfather used to have his children go cut him a switch and bring it to him. My aunt famously did so one time, took her whipping bravely, then looked Grandpa in the eye and said, "I'm not sorry, and I'll do it again." And then what do you do?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Caned for talking to girls? Did you go to like a Catholic school?

No just a private boys school...
It was not that it was Girls, they were from the town, (Just a bit of snobbery)

 

[Alceste]

C'mon, practically all kids experience things like that whilst growing up, regardless of whether or not they were spanked as children.

The link takes you to an abstract of the study, with a preview page that cites a number of other studies to support that paragraph.

I'd be interested to hear what you feel is the flaw in the methodology of all these studies that might lead them to the wrong conclusions. Basically, they take a bunch of kids that get walloped and compare them to kids who don't.

 

[DallasApple]

Children are born uncivilized and basically unfit for society, and it's the parents' job to civilize them and make them fit for society.

It's pretty clear from observing how many different people bring up their children that it's perfectly possible to bring children up to be disciplined, responsible people without using corporal punishment. It's also pretty clear that people who do use corporal punishment often bring up disciplined, responsible children, too. The question is whether spanking serves that end well, and whether it's the best means to that end.

I think spanking is not the best way to go with discipline. I worry about teaching children that violence (no matter how restrained) is a good way to resolve conflicts. More importantly, I suspect that it teaches the child to internalize the parents' authority more than their values. You must do what I say, not because it's the right thing to do, or because I'm teaching you to make good choices, but because I'm bigger than you and can turn you over my knee. You're teaching your child to think about the immediate consequences of disobedience, but you're not teaching him how to think out more far-reaching consequences or how to make good choices in the first place.

I think spanking makes the parent feel better about asserting his authority and maintaining order, and it probably teaches the child to respect the parent' authority. But I don't think it teaches the child to think very carefully about his actions.

And -- even though there's always somebody who gets offended if you mention training dogs in this context -- I've never had children but I've had a lot of dogs. Dogs do respond to negative reinforcement, but they respond better to positive reinforcement. I've also noticed the same thing as a teacher. My students respond to negative reinforcement, but they respond better to positive reinforcement.

So I don't think spanking is necessarily going to scar a child emotionally, but I think it's the easy way out, and not the best way to teach a child.

Besides, you might get a child like my aunt. My grandfather used to have his children go cut him a switch and bring it to him. My aunt famously did so one time, took her whipping bravely, then looked Grandpa in the eye and said, "I'm not sorry, and I'll do it again." And then what do you do?

Thats what it sounds like to me.It isnt going to ruin the childs life and future life as an adult.It just sounds like it doesnt help.

And your aunts story sounds like me..they used to make us go pick a switch.

I just know when my mother spanked me..I remember how I felt inside.It did NOT cause me to want to do better..it did not cause me to have any remorse over what I did wrong..it didnt ever feel anything close to my mother trying to teach me out of love..it made me feel angry inside..and humiliated..adn helpless...and even sometimes like I wanted to get her back.Like she was the enemy.And it was over the SPANKING..not her dissapointment or frustration over what caused her to spank me.In fact out of all the spankings I can remember but a handful of times what the reason was I got spanked.

I think if you resort to spanking.It at least needs to be over something that you even remember that you did wrong.

Also I agree with the positive verses negative.There is new data out..that children who do better in school..children who grow up to be the most productive and well behaved in life..Had first of all more words to begin with spoken to them from birth and in early childhood...and the % of positive was far higher than negative..compared to children that dont do as well in school and in later life had the reverse..Less words spoken and by far more negatives than positives.

I cant remember his name Im sorry but its the man who went on a mission to try and find out why children born into poverty are almost guranteed to grow up and live in poverty and so on..and one factor in fact was they were "spanked" more often.

Love

Dallas

 

[Alceste]

Good point about not remembering what you did wrong, Dallas. I remember two spankings. I don't remember what either of them were for. I just remember loathing my mother and feeling betrayed. On the other hand, I also got a very serious lecture once from my dad - no physical punishment - for forging my mom's signature on a note from school, and I remember every word, even though I was only seven at the time. Not only that, but the things he explained to me - that my integrity and character are the only things I have which are of any genuine value and can't be taken away from me - stuck with me for life and greatly helped shape the person I became.

 

[Mr Cheese]

some kids need more spanking than others
some kids are stupid
some arent

It really depends on the child imo
and how they are.

There should be no "one size fits all" imo

 

[Autodidact]

So what do you guys suggest as a suitable form of punishment for disobedient children/teenagers exactly?

As I said, the parent has all the marbles:

"Why yes, I'd love to drive you and your friends to the movies, as soon as your room is clean. Just let me know when you want me to check it for you."

"I'll play frisbee with you after you put your toys away."

Another good technique is called natural consequences. This takes judgment, but goes like this: "I'm sorry you lost your frisbee. No, I can't buy you another one."

"I'm sorry you're not eligible to try out for football because your grades are too low. Want to talk about a plan to improve your grades?"

If that's not suitable, you can look at logical consequences. Not quite as good, but better than just arbitrary punishment. That's like, "I see that you're having trouble playing nicely with your friend. I think your friend will have to go home, and it will be a long time before we invite any other friends over." Or: "I see that you're having trouble putting your toys away. I don't think we'll be buying you any more toys until you're able to do that better.

And even more important, "I see that you got that A in geometry that you've been working toward. Let's go to Baskin Robbins and get a cone."

"Nice job using your words, Zack. Can I give you a hug?"

Catch your kids doing something right, and hit them with the positive reinforcement. Works like magic.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Positive reinforcement works for some
It fails miserably for others

Some kids, well most (not all)

NEED structure...

some need it more than others...

I know one girl... her parents gave her positive reinforcement...

she ended up not finishing high school, her parents let her leave due to bullying
Turns out she got STI's from having sex in high school....

Her parents still did nothing...
Now she's a waitress, just finished her GED
She's a walking STI factory, hangs out with known drug addicts
and spends much of her time being intoxicated....

Positive reinforcement has the danger of letting kids do anything

Spare the rod
Spoil the child
Is very true...

But it does not have to involve literal beating...

 

[Aquitaine]

As I said, the parent has all the marbles:

"Why yes, I'd love to drive you and your friends to the movies, as soon as your room is clean. Just let me know when you want me to check it for you."

"I'll play frisbee with you after you put your toys away."

Another good technique is called natural consequences. This takes judgment, but goes like this: "I'm sorry you lost your frisbee. No, I can't buy you another one."

"I'm sorry you're not eligible to try out for football because your grades are too low. Want to talk about a plan to improve your grades?"

If that's not suitable, you can look at logical consequences. Not quite as good, but better than just arbitrary punishment. That's like, "I see that you're having trouble playing nicely with your friend. I think your friend will have to go home, and it will be a long time before we invite any other friends over." Or: "I see that you're having trouble putting your toys away. I don't think we'll be buying you any more toys until you're able to do that better.

And even more important, "I see that you got that A in geometry that you've been working toward. Let's go to Baskin Robbins and get a cone."

"Nice job using your words, Zack. Can I give you a hug?"

Catch your kids doing something right, and hit them with the positive reinforcement. Works like magic.

What about when they turn teenage and bite back? Or just tell you to ****off?

Also Dallas, what would you do if your child hit you in the face?

 

[monta]

What about when they turn teenage and bite back? Or just tell you to ****off?

Also Dallas, what would you do if your child hit you in the face?

If you raise a child to believe that might is right and the strong are permitted to inflict pain on the weak, you may just have such a scenario.

Physical punishment is lazy parenting in my opinion, it is a short term easy fix that instills fear in a child of punishment rather than an understanding of right and wrong.

 

[Aquitaine]

The link takes you to an abstract of the study, with a preview page that cites a number of other studies to support that paragraph.

I'd be interested to hear what you feel is the flaw in the methodology of all these studies that might lead them to the wrong conclusions. Basically, they take a bunch of kids that get walloped and compare them to kids who don't.

Yeah but there's more to upbringing than just:
1)Smacked child, 2)Non-smacked child.

The affects put forward are things that people can get regardless of whether or not they were spanked as kids. There's so many other aspects of one's upbringing that can shape their future, like their social enviroment, role-models, relationship with parents, family security, wealth, education, prospects, economy, crime rate - God there's just so much that affects our upbringing. I can't be convinced that any group of scientists can make an accurate analysis of this spanking case, unless they followed them from birth to Adulthood - or even 'til Death. Not only that but they'd have to somehow isolate the subjects (children) from all the other countless enviromental aspects which can negatively affect their upbringing, it's just far too basic and shallow to conlude that it's all just because of spanking.

Also, I'm not saying that spankign alone will instantly produce more behaved children, like I said, there's 1,000's of other aspects, like trust, love, reasoning, secure family encourage/praise etc etc. It's just that spanking is one of the most controversial of the lot.

You can have a single parent, who takes her only child to a top boarding school with uses CP, and when she's home she's spanked but there's no Father, no love, no trust, no security etc - and the child could turn out a complete mess.

Spanking isn't a magic "quick-fix", on it's own it's never gonna work, I'm just saying that if you have a decent parenting unit, along with a decent enviroment etc, then spanking (as a form of punishment for severe things) is perfectly accpetable in my eyes, aslong as the spanker also explains why he/she resorted to it.

But as I said, there's just so much more to parenting than just Spank or no Spank. So many different things that shape the child mentally. But when used responsibly and properly, spanking in my opinion acts as a very good form of punishment (providing it fits the "offence") and deterrent.

Didn't do me any harm, I doubt it did Dallas any harm. Nor the millions of people from past generations who were spanked and got over it. If anything, they say there was more respect from the youth back then, compared to nowadays youth.

 

[Aquitaine]

If you raise a child to believe that might is right and the strong are permitted to inflict pain on the weak, you may just have such a scenario.

Physical punishment is lazy parenting in my opinion, it is a short term easy fix that instills fear in a child of punishment rather than an understanding of right and wrong.

Well then I'd say if the child thinks that, purely because his parents spank him, then his parents haven't done a good enough job of lecturing him on why they spank him.

Don't presume that Spanking is incompatiable with teaching right from wrong, you don't just Spank and that's it, you need to explain to them why you've done it. You can teach them a verbal lesson after you've spanked them, after they ignore your verbal and "soft" warnings.


I was spanked all the time, mainly form my Dad. He was always very calm and assertive about it, over time, my childish tantrums dissappeared because I knew they'd get nowhere with him. He is very strong and muscular, he spanked me accross the backside, legs, face, head etc, he also used to encourage me to do Ju-Jitsu and showed me how to defend yourself from people attacking you in fights, along with how to restrain people in locks and manuevers etc. His Dad wanted me to be a Boxer too, before he passed away.

Guess how I turned out?

I'm not a physical person, I'm very lightweight, I totally hate violence and aggression from other people and myself, I've never ever been in a fight nor hit someone, and I always try to dissolve physical arguments with words and reason - I'd never try anything physical.

 

[monta]

Well then I'd say if the child thinks that because his parents spank him, then his parents haven't done a good enough job of lecturing him on why they spank him.

Don't presume that Spanking is incompatiable with teaching right from wrong, you don't just Spank and that's it, you need to explain to them why you've done it. You can teach them a verbal lesson after you've spanked them, after they ignore your verbal and "soft" warnings.


I was spanked all the time, mainly form my Dad. He was always very calm and assertive about it, over time, my childish tantrums dissappeared because I knew they'd get nowhere with him. He is very strong and muscular, he spanked me accross the backside, legs, face, head etc, he also used to encourage me to do Ju-Jitsu and showed me how to defend yourself from people attacking you in fights, along with how to restrain people in locks and manuevers etc. His Dad wanted me to be a Boxer too, before he passed away.

Guess how I turned out?

I'm not a physical person, I'm very lightweight, I totally hate violence and aggression from other people and myself, I've never ever been in a fight nor hit someone, and I always try to dissolve physical arguments with words and reason - I'd never try anything physical.

Your opinion of how great you turned out aside, what evidence do you have that spanking is the better option than other non abusive forms of discipline?

 

[Aquitaine]

Your opinion of how great you turned out aside, what evidence do you have that spanking is the better option than other non abusive forms of discipline?

LOL I wasn't making out that I turned out "great", I'm jsut saying that I didn't turn out violent - instead I turned out the opposite.


Well, most Parenting forms of discipine have there advantages and are better than others depending on the circumstance. To me, if a child won't co-operate or listen after you've already tried every other approach, then a spank will resolve it. No I don't have any concrete solid proof that I know best, but hey it worked for me, and I look at the current youth generation of my country (who are products of Tony Blair and New Labour, who've taken the whole "No Spanking" thing, along with other cottonwool-wrapped approaches), and they seem less happy, less in control, less confident, and less respectfull towards others.

The UK youth are also some of the heaviest drinkers, and have the highest rates of teen pregnancy in Western Europe. I also wouldn't be suprised if the teen suicide rates are up too, compared to say, 50 years ago.

 

[Nepenthe]

The UK youth are also some of the heaviest drinkers, and have the highest rates of teen pregnancy in Western Europe. I also wouldn't be suprised if the teen suicide rates are up too, compared to say, 50 years ago.

I don't see any correlation with spanking or non-spanking for pregnancy rates or drinking. England has the second highest rates of teen pregnancy in the Western world, just behind the U.S., while Japan, Korea, Switzerland and the Netherlands came in at the bottom. I seriously doubt corporal punishment is common in any of those countries (it's actually illegal in Japan). I do think the major distinction is availability of birth control and an open willingness to discuss it; concepts lacking in the U.S. and the U.K. I don't doubt that pop sexual imagery as entertainment contributes to it as well, though I hate to sound like some pensioner waving his cane at the neighborhood kids that trespassed on his lawn.

 

[monta]

LOL I wasn't making out that I turned out "great", I'm jsut saying that I didn't turn out violent - instead I turned out the opposite.


Well, most Parenting forms of discipine have there advantages and are better than others depending on the circumstance. To me, if a child won't co-operate or listen after you've already tried every other approach, then a spank will resolve it. No I don't have any concrete solid proof that I know best, but hey it worked for me, and I look at the current youth generation of my country (who are products of Tony Blair and New Labour, who've taken the whole "No Spanking" thing, along with other cottonwool-wrapped approaches), and they seem less happy, less in control, less confident, and less respectfull towards others.

The UK youth are also some of the heaviest drinkers, and have the highest rates of teen pregnancy in Western Europe. I also wouldn't be suprised if the teen suicide rates are up too, compared to say, 50 years ago.

I believe the research into this subject. It has repeatedly shown links to aggressive behaviour , self esteem issues and sexual problems in later lives of children who were spanked. If you are going to claim that not spanking kids is a cause for the social ills of the UK you will have to support this theory with some facts linking children who are not spanked to teens who drink and get pregnant. I am going to flat out say I don't believe people don't comit suicide because they weren't spanked as kids.

 

[Aquitaine]

I don't see any correlation with spanking or non-spanking for pregnancy rates or drinking.

England has the second highest rates of teen pregnancy in the Western world, just behind the U.S., while Japan, Korea, Switzerland and the Netherlands came in at the bottom. I seriously doubt corporal punishment is common in any of those countries (it's actually illegal in Japan). I do think the major distinction is availability of birth control and an open willingness to discuss it; concepts lacking in the U.S. and the U.K. I don't doubt that pop sexual imagery as entertainment contributes to it as well, though I hate to sound like some pensioner waving his cane at the neighborhood kids that trespassed on his lawn.

Well of course, it would be rediculous to correlate it all to just one thing, spanking, or rather, lack of spanking.

Like I said there's just so many different factors and aspects that affect your upbringing as a child.

I think both good parenting and bad parenting can involve Spanking, and God knows how many other techniques. It all depends on the circumstances, moderation, and how you do it - and whether or not you teach your child why you spank them, if you have to resort to it.

What I was meant to highlight about that last sentence in my previous reply was that, our current Government is considered more of a "soft" example (atleast in relation to their stance on child discipline and how to raise children), and honestly, I look around, I look at my community, I look at my friends, and they're not happy. I'm one of the very few I know who isn't addicted to either smoking, Alchohol or other heavier drugs. A consdierable portion of my friends have undergone unsuccessfully overdoses and suicide attempts, and are on some sort of anti-depressant. A lot of them have been involved with the Law, and they constantly try to get intoxicated just so they can "escape". Me and another friend who were spanked as children, arn't addicted to anything nor abuse substances or are unhappy or have had any run-in's with the Law.
However, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that not spanking is bad, all I'm trying to do is defend my belief that spanking isn't some evil practice that turns children into monsters/messed up people.

I ask older people what life was like when they were children, and they say it was much stricter, but much better because of it. They say there was less bullying in schools, less drugs, less crimes amongst the youth, and that they had the "time" to still be a kid, whereas nowadays the emphasise is on them growing up too fast (atleast in terms of many negative things, like Sex).

Don't get me wrong, it's not all parenting, there's tons of other factors about our enviroment that shapes who were are. I just think that in many areas we (adults) and our children need to be more disciplined, and hey spanking seems to have done the job in the past, why can't it be reinstated?