Paris terrorists not Practicing Muslims at all

[leibowde84]

As I said the first time, you'll get it eventually. If not this century then surely the next.

Why can't you just point it out?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

A lot of Islamic eschatology involves Rum [the Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire]. It's why the IS magazine is called Dabiq.

The fact that neither the Byzantine Empire nor Constantinople exists today, and that the prophecies talk about swords, ships powered by wind and oars, and medieval style pitched battles with warriors on horses seems not to dampen some people's optimism regarding the accuracy of these predictions.

As such, many Muslims eagerly look forward to the days that the armies of Islam conquer Rome thus heralding the return of Jesus and the end of days.


Ka'b said: " In the conquest of Rome, an army will leave the Maghreb (Morocco, Algeria, and Tunis) with an easterly wind. None of their rowing oars break and none of their ropes get cut-off, til they reach Rome. They will conquer it. It (Rome) has a tree which is mentioned in the Book of Allah ... whoever hangs his weapon or ties his horse to it is considered by Allah one of the best martyrs. Ka'b also said: "Amoria will be conquered before Nicaea (a city in Turkey where today's Christian creed was formulated in 325 AD), Nicaea before Constantinople, and Constantinople before Rome." (Nuaim bin Hammad's Kitab al-Fitan)

Arta said:

"It has reached me that the Mahdi will live for forty years, then he will die on his bed. Then, a man from Qahtan will come, with pierced ears, who will follow the example of the Mahdi. He will remain for twenty years and then he will die, killed by a weapon. Then, a man will come from the household of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم , a mahdi (rightly guided) of good reputation, who will conquer the City of Caesar (Rome or Constantinople). He will be the last Amir (Prince) from the Ummah of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم . During his time, the Dajjal (Anti-Christ) will come out, and during his time, Jesus son of Mary عليه السلام will descend." (Nuaim bin Hammad's Kitab Al-Fitan, Jalal-uddine AsSuyuti's Al-Urf Al-Wardi fi Akhbar Al-Mahdi, a part of Al-Hawi li Al-Fatawa)

Zu Mukhammar said I heard the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم say, " You will make a Hudna (Truce Agreement) with the Romans, and together you and them will invade an enemy (located) behind you. You will be victorious, take much booty, and you will leave. Then, you will camp on a hilly pasture. When one of the Romans will approach (the Muslim army), raise a cross and says "The Cross has won", one of the Muslims will get angry and take off the Cross. Then, the Romans will trick (bluff or deceive) you, and gather (prepare) for the Malhama (War). They will gather an army against you and come against you with eighty banners, each banner followed by 10,000 (or 12,000) men."(Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and Ibn Majah)


Abu Huraira narrates that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

"The Hour (of Resurrection) will not come until theالروم Romans land in Al-A'maq (valleys in Antioch, southern Turkey) or in Dabiq (a plain near Aleppo, Syria). An army consisting of the best of the people of the Earth (an international Muslim army) at that time will come out of Medina (in Saudi Arabia) to face them.

When they will arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans will say: ' Do not stand between us and those (Christian Converts to Islam) who were taken away from amongst us. Let us fight with them ' ; and the Muslims will say: 'No! by Allah, we will not stand aside and let you fight our brothers.'


They will then fight. A third (of the Muslim army) will be defeated (& run away), and Allah will never forgive them. A third (of the Muslim army) will be killed and they will be regarded as the best martyrs in the eyes of Allah. A third (of the Muslim army) will conquer and they do not get affected by Fitna (tribulations). They will conquer Constantinople.

While the Muslims are busy distributing the spoils (booty) of war, after hanging their swords by the olive trees, Satan will shout: 'The Anti-Christ has taken your place among your family (or in your land).' The Muslims will then come out, but will find out that it is not true. And when they arrive to Al-Sham (Damascus or Syria), he (Anti-Christ) will come out. While they (Muslims) are preparing to fight him, and drawing up their ranks, prayer time will come and then, Jesus the son of Mary will descend and lead (or join) them in prayer. When Allah's enemy (Anti-Christ) sees him (Jesus), it will dissolve just as the salt dissolves in water. If Jesus were to leave him (Anti-Christ) alone, he (Anti-Christ) would melt to death anyway, but Allah will have him (Anti-Christ) killed by his (Jesus') hand, and he (Jesus) will show the Muslims his (Anti-Christ's) blood on his (Jesus') spear." (Sahih Muslim)

Yeah, that's what I expected. Islam has a strong current of hatred for Jews and Christians and so a lot of Muslims want to destroy us. Nothing new to me, really.

 

[Shusha]

@FearGod

Would you mind answering some of the questions I posed a while back?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The reason I am totally against ISIS has more to do with the almost universal condemnation they are getting from the Muslim world, rather than what the West is saying about them, which may not be entirely accurate.

You say "almost universal condemnation" from the Muslim world. So presumably that means there are some Muslims who support them?

 

[FearGod]

I do not understand. Are you claiming that whatever G-d decrees is moral? And that you have perfect access to G-d's decrees? And that if ISIS wins, they clearly are G-d's representatives and therefore their moral values are G-d's and we should follow them?

If they won and reached Jerusalem then that means the prophecy was fulfilled,
i'm not speaking about if reaching to Jerusalem is moral or amoral or if the
news about the ISIS is fake or real, but my concern is the prophecy.

 

[Shusha]

If they won and reached Jerusalem then that means the prophecy was fulfilled,
i'm not speaking about if reaching to Jerusalem is moral or amoral or if the
news about the ISIS is fake or real, but my concern is the prophecy.

Yes, but I was asking you questions about what you, as a believer, would or should do when faced with an entity which appears to be attempting to fulfill the prophecy but is behaving in immoral ways. Should you fight against them? Why or why not? Should you fight with them? Why or why not? Should you just wait and see what happens? And IF they do fulfill the prophecy will you support or join them? I'm asking what you, personally, as a Muslim believe and what Islam teaches about such events.

 

[Curious George]

If we define a Muslim as anyone who believes that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger, then yes, most ISIS members are Muslims. If we define a Muslim as anyone who both believes in the Shahada (the Islamic testimony of faith) and observes the commandments of Islam as interpreted by the majority of scholars, then you have an argument that ISIS are not "true Muslims." However, you have to stick to a particular interpretation and not follow an arbitrary standard by which you define who is or isn't a "true Muslim," or else you risk calling any Muslim an apostate if you say they are not Muslims just because they did something you disagree with.



My main sources are 1) election results from Muslim countries, particularly in the Arab world, and 2) poll results like this one:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2009/08/13/pakistani-public-opinion/

I know that a lot of people in my homeland consider bin Laden a hero because, aside from hearing and reading their opinions myself, a lot of Islamists have shown support for him, including on TV. I have already recommended looking up Hazem Salah Abu Ismail so that you can see an example of a popular Islamist politician who refused to denounce bin Laden.



That depends on your definition of "Muslim." Apparently, there are many Muslims, including some scholars, who don't think someone like bin Laden was an apostate.

Are the Saudis who arrested and flogged Raif Badawi Muslims or not, in your opinion? Are you ready to call a good portion of the Muslim world who disagree with you "apostates" and argue that they are not Muslims?



There you go:

And I find it hard to believe that you thoroughly researched the politician and preacher I told you about in less than a few hours. All I had to do to find the above video again was type "Abu Ismail bin Laden" in Arabic on YouTube.



You are digressing. I didn't even mention wanting to change anyone's mind; I was just stating what I believe to be facts.



It's a shame that most Egyptians consider dancers like her "whores" and look down on them.

You see, discussions like this one are why I usually find it futile and frustrating to talk about the problems of the Muslim world with Muslims. There are Muslims who are willing to discuss them, but a lot of them just keep sidetracking these discussions and denying facts and direct observations instead of trying to address what is in front of them. I don't know what your view of the Muslim world is, but I'm wondering if you truly think that most Muslims are against stoning or at the very least lashing, which is directly prescribed as a punishment for "fornication" in Qur'an 24:2:



(Source of translation.)

I think the Muslim world needs more people who are capable of self-criticism. Avoidance and intellectual complacency are not going to get it out of its current backward state.

Once and a while, on RF, a poster nails it. #when a like isn't enough.

 

[Curious George]

The whole point is; These terrorists aren't representative of Muslim religion, quite the opposite, and none of the detractors have presented any evidence in this thread that these terrorists are representative of Islam

I think most of the world understands these terrorists are not representative of the Muslim religion, I think however, you are failing to realize that they are representative of a whack-job sect of the Muslim religion. A sect which many fear has a growing support.

 

[Lyndon]

Yeah, just like Westboro Baptist is representative of a whack job Christian religion. But not representative of Christianity as a whole.

 

[Curious George]

Yeah, just like Westboro Baptist is representative of a whack job Christian religion. But not representative of Christianity as a whole.

Yes.

 

[Curious George]

Yeah, just like Westboro Baptist is representative of a whack job Christian religion. But not representative of Christianity as a whole.

So, I take it you understand then. See, we didn't need 20 pages.

 

[leibowde84]

Yeah, just like Westboro Baptist is representative of a whack job Christian religion. But not representative of Christianity as a whole.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone here claimed that ISIS is representative of Muslims as a whole? If so, who? I would like to discuss that with them as well, as that is absolutely absurd.

 

[Lyndon]

Yes, people have, many times on this forum.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes, people have, many times on this forum.

Can you do me a favor and let me know if a pm when that happens. That is ridiculously stupid.

 

[FearGod]

Yes, but I was asking you questions about what you, as a believer, would or should do when faced with an entity which appears to be attempting to fulfill the prophecy but is behaving in immoral ways. Should you fight against them? Why or why not? Should you fight with them? Why or why not? Should you just wait and see what happens? And IF they do fulfill the prophecy will you support or join them? I'm asking what you, personally, as a Muslim believe and what Islam teaches about such events.

Fulfilling the prophecy and behaving immorally doesn't make sense to me.
I said that i won't believe the media if in a case they fulfilled the prophecy, i'll
believe the events and what they achieved than what the media says about
their morals.

They said that Jesus was the son of whore and prophet Muhammed as a bloodthirsty,
should i believe the disbelievers and think that the prophets were unscrupulous and immoral.

 

[Shusha]

Fulfilling the prophecy and behaving immorally doesn't make sense to me.
I said that i won't believe the media if in a case they fulfilled the prophecy, i'll
believe the events and what they achieved than what the media says about
their morals.

They said that Jesus was the son of whore and prophet Muhammed as a bloodthirsty,
should i believe the disbelievers and think that the prophets were unscrupulous and immoral.

So let me see if I understand you. IF they fulfill the prophecy then they are acting with G-d's blessing and support, therefore, their actions, by definition, are moral. You don't trust the media to accurately reflect the events, including ISIS own thoughts as distributed over social media. Disbelievers can not be trusted. So the best course of action for right now is to just wait and see what happens. Is that about right?

 

[FearGod]

So let me see if I understand you. IF they fulfill the prophecy then they are acting with G-d's blessing and support, therefore, their actions, by definition, are moral. You don't trust the media to accurately reflect the events, including ISIS own thoughts as distributed over social media. Disbelievers can not be trusted. So the best course of action for right now is to just wait and see what happens. Is that about right?

Would you please show some examples of the ISIS own thoughts that distributed over social media
and how could we know that they're the ISIS.

Yes the best thing is to wait and see what'll happen.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yeah, that's what I expected. Islam has a strong current of hatred for Jews and Christians and so a lot of Muslims want to destroy us. Nothing new to me, really.

this not true , God blame Jews for why killing His Prophets and disbelieve and edit His message each time , He sent .

Blamed Christians for worship (and consider) Jesus (pbuh) as God , since Jesus (pbuh) never claim that he is God .

on contrary God order us to don't dispute you in religion (the People of the Book)

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes, people have, many times on this forum.

No they haven't, it's just a tired straw-man.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yeah, just like Westboro Baptist is representative of a whack job Christian religion. But not representative of Christianity as a whole.

Yep. But Westboro Baptists clearly are a Christian sect. That's the point.