Well I see prayer as working more like a placebo effect. That is something I would like to see more studies on. If the body can be fooled into thinking it is well without drugs, that would be a wonderful thing indeed. Shows just how powerful the mind and body connection really is imo. However, that's a different thread.
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Pat Robertson says Haiti under a Curse
- Thread starter tumbleweed41
- Start date
applewuud
Active Member
Mature Christian theology left behind Pat Robertson's kind of thinking centuries ago. Drawing a line of causality from beliefs--especially the beliefs of a small group of people 200 years ago--to a natural disaster or similar situation caused by God is a self-serving argument. As far as the practice of voodoo being the cause of the earthquake, that's not what Robertson said. He said it was a pact with the devil made by the slaves who revolted against Napoleonic rule...a "fact" that isn't very well supported to begin with. It's likely to be a story planted by the French who didn't understand how God would let them be run off the island by a bunch of slaves.
The idea of divine punishment being a proof of a particular belief can be attacked so many ways that it doesn't stand up. One could as well say that the earthquake was caused by Satan as retribution for the Haitians supporting the Catholic church, or caused by a Haitian god of the sea for a failure to sacrifice to him. In psychology, it's been shown over and over again that negative reinforcement (punishment) only works to extinguish a behavior if it happens immediately after the "error", and also that punishment doesn't work nearly as well as reward. Why would God design beings that work that way, then delay a punishment by 200 years? It's a stupid, immature, theologically naive premise.
The idea of divine punishment being a proof of a particular belief can be attacked so many ways that it doesn't stand up. One could as well say that the earthquake was caused by Satan as retribution for the Haitians supporting the Catholic church, or caused by a Haitian god of the sea for a failure to sacrifice to him. In psychology, it's been shown over and over again that negative reinforcement (punishment) only works to extinguish a behavior if it happens immediately after the "error", and also that punishment doesn't work nearly as well as reward. Why would God design beings that work that way, then delay a punishment by 200 years? It's a stupid, immature, theologically naive premise.
The other effect of Pat Robertson's theological position is that it removes us, and our economic system, from any culpability in the human disaster unfolding in Haiti. The buildings and infrastructure down there are substandard and dangerous at least in part because of our exploitation of that society, and the failure of our economic model to work for the betterment of those people. Haiti was a relatively prosperous country before so-called free trade wiped out a good chunk of their agriculture and drove people into the slums near Port au Prince.
Pat Robertson, as a Republican presidential candidate, was a key supporter of that economic model. So, it's easier to say that the terrible conditions in Haiti are part of a supernatural design, than to cop to any doubt that our capitalist, free-trade system is less than perfect.
The "devil worship" excuse also is a subconscious racist appeal to Robertson's supporters, drawing on the history that a successful slave rebellion (that made Haiti the second democratic country in the Western Hemisphere, to the chagrin of American slaveholders) must have been non-Christian, supported by those dark African devils.
I said something similar. We should have been doing this all along (helping and building) There is a problem ATM we cant because of American Greed, we are broke
.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
It depends on what "your side" is. Most people pray for things, for peace, for their loved ones to come home safe, for health and safety for their family, and so forth. Pastors preach it, the Bible promises it, and it is a basic tenet of Christian faith. But it doesn't work. At all. Not one iota. Prayer affects absolutely nothing outside the person praying. It has the same measurable benefits as meditation for the person doing it.
I could easily fine you a dozen Christian websites claiming that God grants prayers. In any common sense of the word "grants," he does not. It's false. Kind of reduces the attraction of Christianity from what's advertised.
How do you distinguish "God's will" from random chance?
OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
Wow. and when something terrible and tragic happens in your own home,
to your family, i wonder that you would say god "caused" it.
and that you are being punished.
(or perhaps you would choose to blame your neighbors instead)
(for corrupting your neighborhood and all)
Well, if I did evil against my God and received tragedy for my sin; then I would repent and seek my God's forgiveness and salvation. If the tragedy came to my house (especially in the form of a hurricane); then I would know that God allowed it to happen to get my attention. The first thing I will check is to see whether I did something wrong. If I didn't do anything wrong; then I will treat my would-be disaster the same way as the prophet Aeyuub (Job) would: An opportunity to trust that my God still cares and is using such a tragedy for an important life-learning experience.
And [he] said: Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: YAHWEH gave, and YAHWEH hath taken away; blessed be the name of YAHWEH. ---- The Holy Book of Aeyuub (Job) 1:21 :candle:
Smoke
Done here.
The idea that god would send a hurricane to get your attention seems to me a stunningly narcissistic belief.
OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
We have been around for about 6,000 years. I believe those same questions were presented to the holy prophets Yeshayahu (Isaiah), Yermeyahu (Jeremiah), Yunah (Jonah), and Husho (Hosea). But I'm sure (as I am) that they stood their ground. :clapBoy, disasters sure do bring out the best in people don't they!!!!
OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
oh man!!!! 2010 and we still have to put up with this stuff
We believe that the expiration of these kinds of thinking may take another 1,000 years. We believe that mankind's behavior is somewhat cyclical; Mankind tends to repeat history especially the tragic ones. Unfortunately, there are still most people in this world bent on death and destruction of others. Advance in technology and engineering doesn't equate to advance in morality. In fact, many theologians (Jews, Christians, Muslims) believe that society is eroding morally. :tribal2:
OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
True, God sometimes holds back his wrath; but it is written that he sometimes pours out his wrath. Yes, he fill our lives with good, compassion, and mercy; but he also give others wrath and punishment. I would like to know how is that you know that God did not cause this disaster? I know that some Christian may not understand the purpose of God's wrath. :candle:
In regards to "every Christian knows": I was implying that every Bible-reading Christian knows that God punishes the evil doer with war and natural destructions. You're right; there are some Christians who wear that label by membership but do not read the Bible. And there are some Christians who do not read all of the Bible. I am not saying that is you; but just simply saying that there are those kinds of Christians out there in churches today. :rainbow1:
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OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
And this remains somewhat a mystery to me to this day. But I trust and pray that my divine God that he will explain this and other natural destructions to us someday. However, I would like to point out that I believe that this kind of destruction was meant for the evil people in Haiti and not the innocent Haitians. Nevertheless, it is true that the innocent sometimes get caught up with the evil-doers. But I believe this is a truth: Where there is no evil doers in the land: The good and innocent people rejoice and prosper. I hope someday that no more innocent and good people have to suffer because of the evil and destructive works of evil-doers. I believe that my divine God will make that a reality someday.
OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
On the surface, I can see how many people might come to this conclusion (even myself earlier in life). However, I dig more deeper into the research of God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and came to understand that he really loves his creation; but he hates the works of the evil doer. Because I believe that he knows that the evil doer will eventually hurt the innocent and eventually destroy life on earth.
I'm just saying what many people are either afraid to say or don't want to admit it. The Almighty God has brought destruction in the past to evil-doers. I have not found any evidence in Holy Scriptures to say that he is done with that kind of punishment for the wicked. Sorry, but that is the sad truth that I have found in his Holy Books. :sorry1:
Nevertheless, I read somewhere (and still believe it) that he is compassionate and loving to bless millions of those that do good to others. Including the surviving Haitians. :candle:
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
I find it fascinating how magical thinking persists even in the age of science.
MSizer
MSizer
It's unbelievable isn't it? The beautiful baby girl that was born 2 minutes before the earthquake and subsequently crushed to death when the hospital collapsed suffered for the sins of people that died long before she was even born. Isn't god a swell guy?
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
Our minister stated Sunday, that "wrath" is when GOD reacts. "Judgment" is when GOD witholds reaction.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
But never on the poor or disenfranchised. Christ spared the prostitute. He treated the Samaritan woman as an equal. In fact, the people God has Biblically chosen to use are with little exception, the ones least deserving.
Even Biblically, God retreats further into the background the longer the story goes. In Mark, Jesus, not God, is Lord of nature. When the darkness came during the crucifixion, it isn't stated that "God did it."
Further, read my statement above. God doesn't bring wrath on the poor and disenfranchised.
I'm a Bible-reading Christian. Many of the folks I know are Bible-reading Christians. Yet, we don't know that. Your statement is wrong.
Been there. Done that. Screen-printed the T-shirt.
No, you said:
You're wrong. And probably more so than just that assertion.
MSizer
MSizer
And what does that mean? Christian children in Haiti who were crushed by falling bricks were the victims of His wrath, and my atheistic self gets away with the skin of my ***?
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
So, was the earthquake Wrath or Judgment?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
that seems to place a very heavy load of conditionality upon love (which is, by nature, unconditional).
"This is a true saying, and worthy of all to be received: That Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners."
"The healthy have no need of a physician, but only the sick."
Two Biblical examples that refute your statement that there is no evidence that God is done with that kind of punishment for the wicked.
Harshtotem
Member
This act was an act of consolidation by the Principals of the West- this was not a "divine" act sanctioned by "heaven" this was as unnatural as 911
It isthe expression of the Powers of the Air associated with the shift of Power created by the collapse of the Principalityof the Roman Empire-
It isthe expression of the Powers of the Air associated with the shift of Power created by the collapse of the Principalityof the Roman Empire-
We've been around way longer than that and been wrong just as long too. God did not punish the Haitians. If he is so offended by voodoo then why wasn't the Dominican Republic also devasted? Your beliefs imo are just hate mongering in a time when compassion would be far more appropriate.