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Photogallery: Lebanon now

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
gracie said:
you know what? i think there's a huge difference between "whining" and "crying out for help / crying out for and end to said 'help' ".

and it's not like the u.s. does the exact same thing every time it goes in somewhere for a given reason. administrations change, interests change, and tactics change. people don't whine so much as suffer, and suffer terribly.

if the u.s. governemnt is, at any time, going to enter another country under the pretext of helping that country's people, it needs to use care, planning, compassion, and common sense. i don't see it using any of those things lately. not when it entered Iraq, not in Guantanamo or in Iraqi prisons (and please don't tell me those are the acts of a few "bad apples"- commands for abuse come from on high. it is always planned and meaningful abuse. look at the prison and police tactics of apatheid south africa for examples) and not in stalling and stalling over a badly needed cease fire which would have ::saved lives:: immediately and given the region time to cool its heels.

if an entity as powerful, diverse, and sprawling as the u.s. military is going to have a hand in a region or a war, it needs to do better than its been doing. as that doesn't seem possible, yes, i think it would be best if we endured the "whining" and reduce our presence abroad.

You're a wise woman, gracie. Reading what you write, one can easily recognize how many layers there are in your thoughts and, right or wrong, that's a very good thing.

I want to comment about what you've said here. I agree it is very important to go into these situations respectfully.

The American soldiers in Bosnia did so. The only complaint that has ever been lodged against them (I mean in public opinion, not legally) was their - and every other country involved with UN - using brothels in which the women were known to be Romanian sex slaves held against the will.

Everything else was quite good. They were extremely respectful of the input from Bosnians. For example, a single mother in Dobrinja wrote a complaint the the commanders at the base in Butmir saying when they drove their tank near the district, her two young children had seizures (post traumatic stress disorder) and it made her other relatives and neighbors uncomfortable as well. They stopped, I'd say, within five minutes of the letter being opened.

They used to explode the landmines and other unexploded weapons they collected in Sarajevo in large depots, all at once, once or twice a day. And it created such a fuss among people, understandbly it terrified them, that they brought in more expensive chambers to lessen the noise and started doing the detonations more frequently so they weren't as large.

They sponsored widows, single women, and so on in every village they patrolled. They arranged for... materials to start weaving businesses, farm animals, suits suitable for working as receptionists and things in Sarajevo, just everything you can think of.

They spread their money out (this one makes me sniffle) and would go to a different restaurant or bar in each village each day, just to make sure they spread around their own money to help as many people as possible.

They allowed Bosnian school children into their tours with famous American celebrities. As many 14-year-old Bosnian girls got to see Mariah Carey as American troops when she was here, free of charge.

They're just so respectful. They all know a handful of phrases in Bosnian, they all... respect traditional women. I don't mean to say they aren't getting any in Bosnia, because they are - and lots of it. But if a woman is walking down the street with her arms covered, or even wearing a veil, they treat her like a lady. Even me, and I hardly dress conservatively. I've been carried across puddles, I've been given flowers from those whose positions I used to pass every day.

I could just write a book about this. That's how you win people's hearts and minds, not but sending rush shipments of weapons to the people bombing them.
 

ayani

member
Buttercup said:

ok... i'm trying to figure out if that means "oh, you silly person" or "i'm not going to try to answer with words or a counter-point so i'll use an emoticon instead", or both.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
gracie said:
ok... i'm trying to figure out if that means "oh, you silly person" or "i'm not going to try to answer with words or a counter-point so i'll use an emoticon instead", or both.
It means of course we want do things correctly and sensitively and no, we are not perfect. I thought what you said goes without saying really. Any intelligent, informed American would feel the same as you.

I definitely didn't mean you were being silly. It's just that of course I would feel the same as you.
 

ayani

member
Djamila- yes. i remember a graphic novel that came out after 9/11 (published in america) which talked about how well the military had done in the Bosnian war, how compassionately and thoughtfully it had acted to save lives, open up opportunities, respect people, and create peace. the end message was "let's show the world the good we can do, not the bombs we can drop". where did that america go?
 

ayani

member
Buttercup said:
It means of course we want do things correctly and sensitively and no, we are not perfect. I thought what you said goes without saying really. Any intelligent, informed American would feel the same as you.

I definitely didn't mean you were being silly. It's just that of course I would feel the same as you.

ok, i hear that. my response was to the use of the term "whining". it's true that the u.s. faces criticism often. while most of it is justified criticism, alot of is not.

but like spiderman said, "with great power comes great responsibility". any thing less is a disgrace and a shame, and deserves critique, protest, and attention.
 

c0da

Active Member
Djamila said:
So the weak Lebanese government is expected to control an organization the Israel spurned the creation of and in decades has not been able to dimish to even the most insignificant degree?

Ok, so let's assume, for a moment, you are correct, Israel spurned Hezballah's creation because of Israel's occupation of Lebanon a while back - Israel withdrew from Lebanon and complied with the UN resolution on the conflict. So why are Hezballah still here?! They got what they wanted, Israel withdrew, they succesfully defended Lebanon from the evil Zionist forces. It's because Hezballah are about more than just defending Lebanon - this is clear to see from some of Nasrallah's quotes that Kai has posted earlier in the thread. Whilst Lebanon, or the south of it at least, are controlled by a group who want to destroy Israel and kill it's Jews, the hopes of peace that you claim Israel are ruining, will keep getting further away.
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
A couple of photos for you, Gracie. :)

Bosnian girls look at an American book at the opening of the first American Corner book store in the country. The U.S. embassy opened this first facility named "American Corner" to provide information about American society to citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
11157318132.jpg


Residents walk in front of the Cafe America in downtown Tuzla, 1996. The new hot spot was opened by the Srebrenica Widows Association to offer American soldiers based in nearby Camp Eagle a taste of home.
11157318265.jpg


Hajra, a Muslim refugee from the town of Vlasenica, now in Bosnian Serb territory, lost everything including her family, 1994. American soldiers, unaware there were survivors in the area, have so far taken in 42 Muslims and Catholics they found sifting through their garbage for something to eat. Initially terrified by the American soldiers, Hajra enjoys an American Ready-to-Eat humanitarian meal while waiting at the garbage pile for other survivors, to let them know its safe to come inside.
11157318441.jpg
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
c0da said:
Ok, so let's assume, for a moment, you are correct, Israel spurned Hezballah's creation because of Israel's occupation of Lebanon a while back - Israel withdrew from Lebanon and complied with the UN resolution on the conflict. So why are Hezballah still here?! They got what they wanted, Israel withdrew, they succesfully defended Lebanon from the evil Zionist forces. It's because Hezballah are about more than just defending Lebanon - this is clear to see from some of Nasrallah's quotes that Kai has posted earlier in the thread. Whilst Lebanon, or the south of it at least, are controlled by a group who want to destroy Israel and kill it's Jews, the hopes of peace that you claim Israel are ruining, will keep getting further away.

Well, obviously Hezbollah is now a terrorist organization. It must be destroyed.

However, Israel did not vacate the whole of southern Lebanon. In the eyes of Hezbollah, and in the eyes of a majority of Lebanon's citizens, the Sheeba Farms belong to them - not Syria. Israel still maintains the occupation of this region even today.
 

Ezzedean

Active Member
kai said:
wrong invasion ezzadean she meant the one to attack the PLO.. i think if you love Hezbollah so much then you must live with it

my bad... I didn't know that was what you were talking about.

I appreciate Hezballah a lot for what they've done for Lebanone... you might think they've destroyed the country, but they've protected it... they got the Israelis out in 2000, and although they've come back in again in 2006, they're gonna be taken out again.. as we speak Israel is blocking Lebanon in the land, sea and air, and all the world is telling them to stop ACCEPT good ol Bush and his home boys...

Hezballah
Translation = Party of God.

I believe that God is on their side since the "power house" Israel can't even stop them with all their military power.... they haven't and never will..

Peace and Blessings
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
You have to be very careful about these things, Ezzedean. Now, I understand that Hezbollah is much more than just a terrorist group. Its social wing, boy scouts clubs and so on, is much larger than its militant wing and it provides to the Lebanese people to a degree both the Lebanese government and the international community are unable or unwilling to match or surpass.

I also understand that their attack was against a legitimate, military target. I surely understand Israel's dismal record, you're more likely to die as a civilian at the hands of the Israeli Army than at the hands of Hezbollah - which is shameful.

But you need to look at what Hezbollah's true objectives are. Now, the Lebanese people may be willing to support Hezbollah for as long as they require liberation and full control over their territory. But once that goal is met, Hezbollah will not simply vanish. It will become an enemy not only of the Israelis but also of the Lebanese. So there's no harm in beginning reforms now.

You can still have a resistence force as long as it exists only to resist the illegal occupation. Once it exists as a means of revenge, or anything of this nature, then it is counter-productive.

Sit back and imagine that Israel vacates the Sheeba Farms and all of Lebanon is united and free. Imagine the country Israel destroyed is rebuilt, the bodies are all given proper burials and the tourists once again return. Even though the Lebanese people have not gotten justice for their suffering, don't you think it would be best in their interest to continue on a path of peace? Now if Hezbollah carried out an attack at that time, then no reason remains besides revenge and then they're as bad as the Israeli forces, they're using collective punishment as well.

So you have to be careful to choose your bed fellows wisely because while the desires of all of Lebanon's people are repsented in Hezbollah, Hezbollah's desires go above and beyond that to a place few Lebanese would be willing to go. Lebanon doesn't have the religious fanaticism you find in Israel. There are no Muslim-only settlements or Christian-only roads, or Lebanese-only apartment blocks, cafes, and so on. The Lebanese people, I'm sure, don't want to treat the Isrealis the way they've been treated. Hezbollah does.

So, all I can say is construct a morally defensible resistence force now, because once the Lebanese people have all the rights and freedoms they deserve, it will be too late.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Ezzedean said:
I believe that God is on their side since the "power house" Israel can't even stop them with all their military power.... they haven't and never will..

Peace and Blessings

Good grief Ezzedean my dear. How can you even say this as a man of God and right afterwards say Peace and Blessings? Do you have a direct line to God and his musings? God would want peace. Of that I am completely certain. It is our job to promote peace vigourously. Anything less and we should feel ashamed.
 

Ezzedean

Active Member
Djamila said:
You have to be very careful about these things, Ezzedean. Now, I understand that Hezbollah is much more than just a terrorist group. Its social wing, boy scouts clubs and so on, is much larger than its militant wing and it provides to the Lebanese people to a degree both the Lebanese government and the international community are unable or unwilling to match or surpass.

I also understand that their attack was against a legitimate, military target. I surely understand Israel's dismal record, you're more likely to die as a civilian at the hands of the Israeli Army than at the hands of Hezbollah - which is shameful.

But you need to look at what Hezbollah's true objectives are. Now, the Lebanese people may be willing to support Hezbollah for as long as they require liberation and full control over their territory. But once that goal is met, Hezbollah will not simply vanish. It will become an enemy not only of the Israelis but also of the Lebanese. So there's no harm in beginning reforms now.

You can still have a resistence force as long as it exists only to resist the illegal occupation. Once it exists as a means of revenge, or anything of this nature, then it is counter-productive.

Sit back and imagine that Israel vacates the Sheeba Farms and all of Lebanon is united and free. Imagine the country Israel destroyed is rebuilt, the bodies are all given proper burials and the tourists once again return. Even though the Lebanese people have not gotten justice for their suffering, don't you think it would be best in their interest to continue on a path of peace? Now if Hezbollah carried out an attack at that time, then no reason remains besides revenge and then they're as bad as the Israeli forces, they're using collective punishment as well.

So you have to be careful to choose your bed fellows wisely because while the desires of all of Lebanon's people are repsented in Hezbollah, Hezbollah's desires go above and beyond that to a place few Lebanese would be willing to go. Lebanon doesn't have the religious fanaticism you find in Israel. There are no Muslim-only settlements or Christian-only roads, or Lebanese-only apartment blocks, cafes, and so on. The Lebanese people, I'm sure, don't want to treat the Isrealis the way they've been treated. Hezbollah does.

So, all I can say is construct a morally defensible resistence force now, because once the Lebanese people have all the rights and freedoms they deserve, it will be too late.

If there is truly peace, then hezballah will stop. Tell me why you don't think this will happen? Hezballah formed to bring peace and to liberate Lebanon. You are assuming after Lebanon receives all those things you mentioned (freedom, proper burial, rebuilt, tourists, sheeba farms and peace) that Hezballah will continue to attack. Why do you assume that?

Are you saying that if Lebanon get's peace and the freedoms they deserve that Hezballah should just leave? I sure hope that's not what you mean because if Hezballah leaves, Lebanon will get taken advantage of. Hezballah needs to stay and make sure Lebanon maintains that freedom.

Peace and Blessings
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
I believe they will continue to attack, Ezzedean, based on what their leadership has said over the years. I really do believe they would betray you that badly. I just hope you'll be careful, truly. I want only that you can live happy and free lives.
 

ayani

member
Djamila- those images did my heart good. it's great to see the good that can come from wise and well-guided fronts for peace.
 

Ezzedean

Active Member
Buttercup said:
Good grief Ezzedean my dear. How can you even say this as a man of God and right afterwards say Peace and Blessings? Do you have a direct line to God and his musings? God would want peace. Of that I am completely certain. It is our job to promote peace vigourously. Anything less and we should feel ashamed.

I agree that God wants peace Buttercup, but I also believe that God works in mysterious ways. Do you believe that Hezballah doesn't want peace? Do you believe that Hezballah was just fighting Israel out of pure hatred? Israel was occupying Lebanon and they stepped in to stop it... Just as much as God would want peace he also wouldn't want Israel occupying land in which they had no right to.

I can see how those comments may have shocked you, but I said "I believe", I didn't say that they definately were protected by God, which should show that I don't have a direct line with God. Coming from a person who has been to Lebanon, and who has family there, Hezballah has done a lot of great things for that country, and is loved. The main goal is peace, and I believe that Hezballah wants to reach that goal... God has wiped out nations before, God has condoned Moses' military ways, God protected Muhammed in many battles (against people who were fighting against God), although God would want peace, peace doesn't come for free. I don't doubt that God could just make it be, because I'm sure he could but he wants us, you and me, to reach it... and the governments of the world are making it impossible to happen without force. Sad but true... and during that force I believe one side is right and another is wrong, and God will side with the one whom is right. Does that mean that I can't wish peace and blessings because I believe in such a thing? No. If I was being opressed because of who I was I would fight, and I believe we as human beings have that right.

Peace and Blessings
 

Ezzedean

Active Member
BTW I don't doubt that God would want us to reach peace without war... and I also belive that the people who are making it come down to war and who are being untruthful in negotiations, and who are lying to the people through media, will pay a horrible horrible price.
 

ayani

member
Ezzedean said:
I agree that God wants peace Buttercup, but I also believe that God works in mysterious ways. Do you believe that Hezballah doesn't want peace? Do you believe that Hezballah was just fighting Israel out of pure hatred? Israel was occupying Lebanon and they stepped in to stop it...

and they did a great job of ::that:: didn't they? the stopping it and what not?

regardless, Hezbollah is more popular in Lebanon than ever. why did they kidknap those guys anyway? and why did Israel repond by, in part, bombing civillian houses? killing kids? the whole thing just makes so little sense to me. i don't know how either side can claim to be righteous or to have won.
 

Ezzedean

Active Member
Djamila said:
I believe they will continue to attack, Ezzedean, based on what their leadership has said over the years. I really do believe they would betray you that badly. I just hope you'll be careful, truly. I want only that you can live happy and free lives.

Alhumduileh I live in Canada and I am able to live a life that you wish for me, and I wish the same for you... it is my family back home who I am worried about. I find it hard to believe that Hezballah will do what you believe they will do, but I also find it hrd to believe that Israel will ever make peace... so we will never be able to find out if Hezballah would maintain it.
 

Ezzedean

Active Member
gracie said:
and they did a great job of ::that:: didn't they? the stopping it and what not?

regardless, Hezbollah is more popular in Lebanon than ever. why did they kidnap those guys anyway? and why did Israel repond by, in part, bombing civillian houses? killing kids? the whole thing just makes so little sense to me. i don't know how either side can claim to be righteous or to have won.

They did remove Israel Gracie... after 18 years of occupation Hezballah kicked Israel out of Lebanon in 2000. It was in 2006 when the fighting started again, 6 years later. Now you ask why? I will tell you why. My parents were in Lebanon for a month and got back home one week before the attacks started. When they came home one of the interesting things they told me was that everyday, once a day, Israeli military planes would fly over Lebanon and scope it out. This was a daily activity Buttercup, a daily activity which is not aloud to be done. If another countries military planes were to fly over the U.S on a daily basis, those planes wouldn't be making it back home. Anyway, Israel has thousands of Lebanese prisoners.. this is a fact. So Hezballah captured those soldiers in hopes to negotiate them for the Lebanese prisoners back, but instead what they received was a barrage of attacks on Lebanese land. So rightfully so, Hezballah faught back... what else were they supposed to do?

I know you might not believe me when I say this, but I'm being dead honest with you. I wish it would all just stop. I wish it never happened, and I wish it never happens again... but growing up my whole life hearing about these things I've come to understand that it's gonna take a lot for this problem in the middle east to come to an end.... can anybody say the second coming?

Peace and Blessings Gracie (I honestly mean that)
 

ayani

member
Ezzedean said:
Anyway, Israel has thousands of Lebanese prisoners.. this is a fact. So Hezballah captured those soldiers in hopes to negotiate them for the Lebanese prisoners back, but instead what they received was a barrage of attacks on Lebanese land.

were they ::seriously:: expecting differently? in all honesty?
 
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