Question to Bahais. The Maitreya.

[InvestigateTruth]

Ha ha ties back into your post in the Baha'i DIR.

Regards Tony

Hahah, Well, I didn't think of it that far.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The point is by their logic, they shouldn't interpret any of their scripture since they aren't firmly rooted in knowledge but a Prophet is. So anything this Prophet says about their scripture should be accepted. If he says it means x and y, and they say it means m and n, they have to submit to him. Same way they expect Muslims to leave the day of judgment meaning.

That is correct. Interpretation finished with Shoghi Effendi. All we have now are the Explanations given by the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi. The Universal House of Justice is given to guide us into the future and enact the laws. They are not able to interpret.

Each and every person is to study for themselves.

Baha'u'llah has written that as the future unfolds we are to appreciate and embrace scholarship and through consultation we will be able to find the spark of Truth as we move forward, but must submit to the Universal House of Justice, which has been given to us to mediate when personal opinion, or the clashes of opinion, threaten to cause division.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hahah, Well, I didn't think of it that far.

That's the quandary we would face if we do not take for absolute truth, the 1000 year assurance.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's the quandary we would face if we do not take for absolute truth, the 1000 year assurance.

Regards Tony

He says, in none of the authoritative Writings it is mentioned when the 1000 years start.
I don't know if this is true though. But just as there are true Manifestations there are false ones too.

 

[Link]

True. God can do as He wills.
But we do not blindly accept Baha'u'llah and His words. He had to first prove Himself, then we follow. Because it is impossible for God to send a Messenger and ask everyone to submit and obey Him, but does not give proofs and evidence of divinity

Now we getting somewhere.

 

[Link]

If you offer the Word of Allah as given to Christians, I see there is no foundation one can stand on, to prove the Quran is not likewise corrupted? Muhammad did not write the Quran either, he recited it.

Now when you research what remains of those original Words, then the Quran has the same foundation as the Bible. Oral transmissions before the final version is compiled.

Now in offering that I see the Bible is a sure Guide and contains the Word of God. It does have some errors, it is a much older document.

I see the Quran is also a sure guide and contains the Word of God and does not contain errors.

The Baha'i Writings have both the Word of Allah penned by the Messenger and the Word of Allah recited and recorded by a scribe. The copies are still available.

Regards Tony

The Quran was revealed by Mohammad (s) in 23 years. Part of the reason God put an end to Nubuwa, is stop corruption in his scripture. If he made the 12 Imams (A) into Anbiya like the 12 Imams (a) of Bani-Israel were Anbiya, it would be that the text and revelations would be corrupted. And then again, Allah (swt) would have to reveal another revelation.

But part of the game plan, which is a hard trial, in that Ali (a) and his successors (a) being not Prophets, is that Quran becomes central for understanding.

Yet it's been written in a way that allows enemies of Ahlulbayt (a) to deny their station despite it being clear in there. This is allowed in a way they play word games and take it out of their context.

Part of this 23 year thing that happened, was that verses were revealed with situations. Only Imam Ali (a) collected all of Quran order and knows every circumstance each verse was revealed. This book exists with Imam Mahdi (a). This even maybe the new book he will reveal although hadiths explain the new religion and new book to be about reviving Quran and Islam in a way it appears new.

The Quran of Ali (a) has the exact way it was dynamically built. In the past, this would be hard to study, but now we can upload the timings into a program and see the commentary and see how Quran was dynamically built over 23 years.

This book contains a commentary that will bring Quran to new heights. It will revive the religion and bringing us back to the Nabi (s).

This is a hard time, we are in a dark night, but the night will pass, and the morning will come.

This is all part of grand plan in making the religion dominate. Usually, the successors are Prophets themselves revealing books from God.

But this changed so that - humanity holds on to one revelation from God for once, without changing it even if they oppose it's message. It's a game plan that only makes sense if things are coming to an end and finality.

We see Mohammad (s) is said to be a Messenger to all humanity. The Quran being built with the Sunnah is what makes it so strong in 23 years. This has been lost over time, but Imam Mahdi (a) will bring the book of Ali (a) that contains the proper history of Mohammad (s) and exactly what he stated with every verse. The Sunnah will ignite the Quran to new heights when revived.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Now we getting somewhere.

Yes and no, as that comes back to our choices and what influences them.

A Messenger is a Messenger and their person and their life and the Message has proved that.

The history of faith to date shows a majority rejects it anyway. After time it permeates the mind of others.

It like the News this Morning in Australia, we have the Headlines printed on the borrow.of the screen as they five the news.

On the bottom of the screen was 'World Order',
and the story was of the couple of Nations that were a threat to the World Order.

That is the message of Baha’u’llah and that is how it slowly permeates the mind of men. It is a confirmation of what was contained in the Message of Allah as given by Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Yes and no, as that comes back to our choices and what influences them.

A Messenger is a Messenger and their person and their life and the Message has proved that.

The history of faith to date shows a majority rejects it anyway. After time it permeates the mind of others.

It like the News this Morning in Australia, we have the Headlines printed on the borrow.of the screen as they five the news.

On the bottom of the screen was 'World Order',
and the story was of the couple of Nations that were a threat to the World Order.

That is the message of Baha’u’llah and that is how it slowly permeates the mind of men. It is a confirmation of what was contained in the Message of Allah as given by Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Tony, if you can prove your religion, then do so. Simply preaching God sends true Messengers and you testifying to Baha'allah doesn't advance anywhere.

I've made threads showing some high eloquent features of Quran. Just the start of the book with Fatiha and how we recite those words in Salah, and it's unique position to Quran, is proof enough for me for Islam. But you got nothing like this. You don't have a book like the Quran.

If you do, then prove it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, if you can prove your religion, then do so. Simply preaching God sends true Messengers and you testifying to Baha'allah doesn't advance anywhere.

I've made threads showing some high eloquent features of Quran. Just the start of the book with Fatiha and how we recite those words in Salah, and it's unique position to Quran, is proof enough for me for Islam. But you got nothing like this. You don't have a book like the Quran.

If you do, then prove it.

Proof is relative, nature and nurture influences our choices. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah recited Words from Allah equivalent to the entire contents of the Quran in under a couple of days, which have been embraced by hundreds of thousands of Muslims as the Words of Allah, so it appears that is a quandary for each person to face for their own selves.

Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have a Most Holy Book, for the Bab it would be the Bayan and for Baha'u'llah it would be the kitab-i-aqdas, which is linked here; The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

There is also over 100 volumes of writings, how much proof do you need? Choose any link below.

Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library
Writings of the Báb | Bahá’í Reference Library
Writings and Talks of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá | Bahá’í Reference Library
Prayers of Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb, and ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá | Bahá’í Reference Library
Writings of Shoghi Effendi | Bahá’í Reference Library
Messages of the Universal House of Justice | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Proof is relative, nature and nurture influences our choices. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah recited Words from Allah equivalent to the entire contents of the Quran in under a couple of days, which have been embraced by hundreds of thousands of Muslims as the Words of Allah, so it appears that is a quandary for each person to face for their own selves.

Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have a Most Holy Book, for the Bab it would be the Bayan and for Baha'u'llah it would be the kitab-i-aqdas, which is linked here; The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

There is also over 100 volumes of writings, how much proof do you need? Choose any link below.

Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library
Writings of the Báb | Bahá’í Reference Library
Writings and Talks of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá | Bahá’í Reference Library
Prayers of Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb, and ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá | Bahá’í Reference Library
Writings of Shoghi Effendi | Bahá’í Reference Library
Messages of the Universal House of Justice | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

I've been through them. If you can show why you think they are on par with Quran, then we can have a conversation. Otherwise, it's just hammering your testimony.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I've been through them. If you can show why you think they are on par with Quran, then we can have a conversation. Otherwise, it's just hammering your testimony.

The only proof you have of the power in the Words of the Quran Link is the reform and inspiration they contain. They were also the standard that built Nations.

I could only offer that the Bab and Baha'u'llah demonstrated their Messages were thus endowed by Allah. That is why they put to death the Bab and banished Baha'u'llah, they were attracting hundreds of thousands of Souls by the potency contained within that Word and thousand of souls put to death with that Word in their hearts.

You will see in them what your heart wants to find Link.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

The only proof you have of the power in the Words of the Quran Link is the reform and inspiration they contain. They were also the standard that built Nations.

I could only offer that the Bab and Baha'u'llah demonstrated their Messages were thus endowed by Allah. That is why they put to death the Bab and Banished Baha'u'llah, they were attracting hundreds of thousands of Souls by the potency contained within that Word.

You will see in them what your heart wants to find Link.

Regards Tony

You really don't get Quran from my perspective. Take away it's meaning, it's light, all the guidance, and still, just how it sounds is a miracle. This is what you don't get. The meaning is amplified and guidance true is very important and central to it. But it's not all there is to Quran. There is a subtle way it talks that is pleasurable, peaceful, tranquil, yet very immensely mighty and scary, sad and blissful at the same time and it's doors open other doors.

From my experience, Kitab Itqaan stays the same no matter how much I read it. I've tried it. The Quran, it changes over time. The more guidance and reflection you do of it, it changes form. The change is exponential - the more you see it change, you know the Quran you started with resembles nothing the Quran you know now.

And it has paths opening other paths, and is woven in a interconnected way. It has themes. But all of so subtle yet so clear, so hidden yet so manifest, it's attractiveness towards God is mysterious but you witness it being from God and it's obvious.

The mysterious letters and how they are unveiled to the heart over time is a miracle to me.

I don't see anything in Bahai scripture having these features.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

From my experience, Kitab Itqaan stays the same no matter how much I read it. I've tried it. The Quran, it changes over time. The more guidance and reflection you do of it, it changes form. The change is exponential - the more you see it change, you know the Quran you started with resembles nothing the Quran you know now.

I offered the Kitab-i-aqdas as proof and you went back to the Kitab-i-iqan, which was written as a reply to the Bab's uncle, before Baha'u'llah declared that he was a Messenger of Allah. Yet it is still one of the greatest books written.

Here is the kitab-i-aqdas, the Most Holy Book. It is as the Quran is.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yeah but to you guys, there's more to come. So how do you know he is not another Mahdi?

I would say just by investigating his claims. If he has proofs. I didn't find proofs, and in his biography it is said he was an atheist before, and also, I don't see he even have a book really with any new teachings. It is just a claim at best. Baha'u'llah's writings are 100 volume of Books. So, are the Writings of the Bab are significantly large.
Those witnesses testified that when Baha'u'llah was having revelations, the scribes were not able to keep up with the speed of His words. The Book of Iqan was revealed in just two days!
The same is true about the Bab.

And both Baha'u'llah and the Bab did not really have education in religion.

The Bab was a 25 years old Persian, who was trained as Merchant, but all the sudden when His revelations began, He started writing many Books, with some of them in Arabic, though He did not have any learnings in Arabic.

Bahaullah in Book of Iqan, indicated one the evidence of Truth of the Bab:

"Therefore, should a person arise and bring forth a myriad verses, discourses, epistles, and prayers, none of which have been acquired through learning, what conceivable excuse could justify those that reject them, and deprive themselves of the potency of their grace? What answer could they give when once their soul hath ascended and departed from its gloomy temple? Could they seek to justify
themselves by saying: “We have clung to a certain tradition, and not having beheld the literal fulfillment thereof, we have therefore raised such cavils against the Embodiments of divine Revelation, and kept remote from the law of God”? Hast thou not heard that among the reasons why certain Prophets have been designated as Prophets “endowed with constancy” was the revelation of a Book"
Baha'u'llah, Iqan


This Book of Iqan was written in response to questions of an uncle of the Bab. He had asked Baha'u'llah that how could the Bab be the Qaim when He was killed, whereas the Qaim is suppose to rule.


What is noteworthy here is, the uncle of the Bab, knew the Bab very well, as they were close relatives and lived in the same locality from the Bab's childhood. So, he knew if the Bab had learnings in religion, or if He had studied them before.

So, Baha'u'llah is telling His uncle, that the Bab never studied and did not really have learnings in religion, yet He wrote so many verses. What is noteworthy is, the uncle did not say this is not true. If the Bab had any learnings, His uncle would have known, and rejected the reasong Baha'u'llah was giving him.

Eventually the uncle became a devoted believer and was martyred. A proof that he was a firm believer.

These are signs in our view that distinguishes between a true Qaim and false Prophets

 

[firedragon]

The point is by their logic, they shouldn't interpret any of their scripture since they aren't firmly rooted in knowledge but a Prophet is. So anything this Prophet says about their scripture should be accepted. If he says it means x and y, and they say it means m and n, they have to submit to him. Same way they expect Muslims to leave the day of judgment meaning.

When someone tries to represent someones faith, and they are wrong, that's not a logical point. Its just lack of knowledge.

If I tell you that you being a Muslim is worshiping Hanuman, that's not a logical point. Its just a lack of knowledge.

 

[firedragon]

You are saying not true to my mention of the existence of minor prophets.

I must refer you to the Baha'i Teachings website.

Two Categories of Prophets

The Baha’i texts distinguish between major prophets—also called universal manifestations, those who bring a new “Book” and start a new religion—and minor prophets, those who assist, reinforce, or reinvigorate an existing religion.

In discussing this distinction in his book Some Answered Questions, Abdu’l-Baha contrasted the “independent” prophets or the manifestations of God with the minor prophets who are themselves followers of the manifestation in whose dispensation they live:

Prophets are in general of two kinds. Some are independent Prophets Who are followed, while others are not independent and are themselves followers.

The independent Prophets are each the Author of a divine religion and the Founder of a new Dispensation. At Their advent the world is clothed in a new attire, a new religion is established, and a new Book revealed. These Prophets acquire the outpouring grace of the divine Reality without an intermediary. Their radiance is an essential radiance like that of the sun, which is luminous in and of itself and whose luminosity is an essential requirement rather than being from another star: They are like the sun and not the moon. These Daysprings of the morn of Divine Unity are the fountainheads of divine grace and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.

The other kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, for their station is contingent rather than independent. They acquire divine grace from the independent Prophets and seek the light of guidance from the reality of universal prophethood. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in and of itself but which receives its light from the sun.

Link

@TransmutingSoul

So who is "NOT" a manifestation of GOd?

Quote scripture directly brother. Tell me in the Bahai theology, who is an Akram Rasool, Who is a Nabi, who is a Rasool? Specifically, quoting direct scripture.

Thanks.

 

[George-ananda]

So who is "NOT" a manifestation of GOd?

In Baha'i thought only the nine I listed above are Manifestations of God.

Quote scripture directly brother. Tell me in the Bahai theology, who is an Akram Rasool, Who is a Nabi, who is a Rasool? Specifically, quoting direct scripture.

Thanks.

I think you lost the audience with that question.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In Baha'i thought only the nine I listed above are Manifestations of God

They are the ones still known. Abdul'baha in the Tablet of the Universe offers this (provisional translation and word in bracketsis my understanding)

"....Know then that the all-embracing framework that governs existence includes within its compass every existent being - particular or universal - whether outwardly or inwardly, secretly or openly. Just as particulars are infinite in number, so also universals, on the material plane, and the great realities of the universe are without number and beyond computation. The Dawning Places of Unity, the Daysprings of Singleness and the Suns of Holiness (Manifestations) are also sanctified beyond the bounds of number, and the luminous spiritual worlds are exalted above limits and restrictions. In like manner the worlds of bodily existence the mind of no man can reckon nor the understanding of the learned comprehend. Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.' The fact that philosophers and sages have posited limits and restrictions for such matters is to be explained by the limitations of people~s minds and perceptions and the blindness of the followers of allusions, whose natures and intellects have been rendered dull and inanimate by the interposition of many veils...."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think you lost the audience with that question.

Yes indeed, correct.

Regards Tony

 

[Flagran]

Quran says Mohammad is seal of Prophets. Baha'allah says it means all Prophets are each other, Adam is last Prophet, Mohammad is Adam, type meaning, they are all last Prophet and first Prophet meaning.

Bab says 1000 years before the one God will manifest after him. Baha'allah interprets it to mean something, something, but then uses the exact same verse and says "whoever interprets it other then me other then it's apparent meaning, then don't follow him" (something like that).

Maitreya says well the apparent meaning is that no one other then a manifestation of God can interpret it, just as he interpreted Babs words in that apparent way, so it's the apparent meaning, but only a Prophet is to interpret it.

And so my question to Bahais. Why don't they accept Maitreya?

He "verifies"- "all Prophets" like your Baha'allah and includes Baha'allah.

Have you read his text? What makes you think his text is not from God? How do you know it's not your hearts not seeing the light?

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It's funny without 'The Holy Bible' (KJV) muslims would not know who Ismael is!?!?! The muslim clerics (mullahs) study 'The Bible' more than Christians!!! Is it not true that Hagar an Egyptian handmade would be considered an Arab today like Muhammed??? Why would God send the angel Gabriel to Muhammed and teach him to teach others to do a complete reversal of all His commandments??? As for the Qu'ran... Revelation 22:18 18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.