Question to Bahais. The Maitreya.

[InvestigateTruth]

Then said, ‘And in the report of Abu Al-Jaroud, (It has been narrated) from Abu Jafar (ع) having said:

“(Al-Bayyinah) ‘The Clear Evidence’ is Muhammad (ص).”

Source: 432:2 تفسير القمّي Sharaf Al-Deen Najafy, from Muhammad Bin Khalid Al-Barqy with an unbroken chain from Amro Bin Shimr, from Jabir Bin Yazeed, who says:

“Abu Jafar (ع) regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: ‘A Rasool from Allah’ – meaning Muhammad — ‘reciting pure pages’ [98:2], meaning, he points to the masters of the Command from after him, and they are the Imams, and they are the pure pages.”

And His Words: “Wherein is correct Scripture’ [98:3], meaning with them is the clear Truth.”

Source: 1/829:2 تأويل الآيات (Extract)

Thanks.
I haven't been able to find this Hadith, but certainly a possible interpretation.

According to a Hadith Muhammad said some Verses of Quran have multiple meanings hidden in them:

"The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning so it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)."

So, there are other possible interpretation for this verse as well.

Sharaf Al-Deen Najafy, from Ali Bin Asbaat, from Ibn Abu Hamza, from Abu Baseer,

“Abu Abdillah (ع) regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: ‘and that is the correct Religion’ [98:5], he said: “That is the Religion of Al-Qaim [عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف].”

Source: 2/831:2 تأويل الآيات

Sharaf Al-Deen Najafy, from Muhammad Bin Khalid Al-Barqy with an unbroken chain from Amro Bin Shimr, from Jabir Bin Yazeed, who says:

“Abu Jafar (ع) regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: ‘And those Given the Book did not separate’ – meaning those who belied the Shias — ‘except from after the clear evidence had come to them’ [98:4], i.e., from after the Truth had come to them.

And His Words: ‘And they had not been Commanded ‘– these kind (of people) — ‘except that they should be worshipping Allah, being sincere to Him of the Religion’ – and the sincerity, it is the Iman in Allah and His Rasool and the Imam — ‘and they should be establishing the Salat and giving the Zakat’ – and the Salat is Amirul Momineen (ع) Ali Ibn Abi Talib — ‘and that is the correct Religion’ [98:5].””

Source: 1/829:2 تأويل الآيات (Extract)

Ali Al Husayn Al Astarabady – Muhammad Bin Al Abbas reported, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Al Waraq, from Ahmad Bin Ibrahim, from Al Hassan Bin Abu Abdullah, from Mas’ab Bin Salaam, from Abu Hamza Al Sumaly, Abu Jafar (ع), from Jabir Ibn Abdillah having said:

“Rasulullah (ص), during his illness in which he passed away, said: “O Ali! Come near me.” So he went near him. He said: “Bring your ears very close to my mouth.” So he did it. He said: “O my brother! Have you not heard the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic in His Book: ‘Surely those who believe and are doing righteous deeds, those, they are the best of the Created beings’ [98:7]?”

He said: “Yes.”

Rasulullah (ص) said: “They are you and your Shia. You all will be coming as youths with resplendent faces. Have you not heard the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic in His Book: ‘Surely those who commit Kufr from the People of the Book and the Polytheists would be in Fire of Hell, being eternally therein. Those, they are the worst of the Created beings’ [98:6]?”

He said: “Yes, O Rasulullah [ص]!” He said: “They are your enemies and enemies of your Shia, who will be coming on the Day of Judgement, with blackened faces, extremely thirsty, miserable, tormented, infidels, hypocrites. That, would be for you and your Shias, and this, would be for your enemies and their adherents.”

Source: Tafseer Abu Hamza Al Sumaly - Hadeeth No. 371

Sharaf Al-Deen Najafy, from Muhammad Bin Khalid Al-Barqy with an unbroken chain from Amro Bin Shimr, from Jabir Bin Yazeed, who says:

“Abu Jafar (ع) regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: ‘Allah being Pleased from them, and they being pleased from Him’ [98:8]: “Allah is Pleased from the Momin in the world and the Hereafter, and the Momin, if he was pleased from Allah, then in his heart would be what is in it, when he sees the in this world scrutinising. Then when he sees the Rewards on the Day of Judgment, he would be pleased from Allah, truthfully as is the right of being pleased, and these are the Words of Allah ‘and they being pleased from Him’ [98:8].

And his Words: ‘That is for one who fears his Lord’ [98:8] – i.e., is obedient to his Lord.”

Source: 1/830:2 تأويل الآيات


This is some ahadith. Anyways, I think I got to stop this.

You are too bias. You don't think with mental clarity.

It's obviously Mohammad (s). And Surahs point to Imams (a) and like they are stated to be the "clear signs" of Quran, they too are the purified pages - that is Surahs are in their hearts and they are what they remind of. In fact, seeing Ahlulbayt (a) and their position in Quran, in many different aspects of Welayat, purifies the heart.

But do you know any of these Hadithes say that the Book in this specific verse is the Quran?

But as we saw, these verses have multiple hidden meanings.
In my view, these verses are warnings to Muslims. It is saying that the previous people did not disagree with Revelations of Allah, until next Messenger came, and then they disbelieved in the New Book. Here it is warning Muslims that when the future Messenger comes, they should not follow the ways of previous people. It is giving a hint that this Messenger will have Books!

 

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But do you know any of these Hadithes say that the Book in this specific verse is the Quran?

You are being obtuse and it's annoying.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are being obtuse and it's annoying.

Sorry, maybe the way I say things are annoying. Apologies

But I just don't think the verse is about the Quran. I agree one interpretation is as you quoted from Hadith.
If this verse is about the Quran, how do you translated this verse;


"A messenger from Allah, reading purified pages, containing valuable Books."


The translation for صحف، is pages.

The translation of كتب، can be Books or Writings.

So, then it becomes like this:


:A messenger from Allah, reading purified pages, containing valuable writings."

Now, it is obvious that pages contain writings. Any page always contains writings. Why we need Allah to tell us, that in the Quran pages, there are valuable writings?

 

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Sorry, maybe the way I say things are annoying. Apologies

But I just don't think the verse is about the Quran. I agree one interpretation is as you quoted from Hadith.
If this verse is about the Quran, how do you translated this verse;


"A messenger from Allah, reading purified pages, containing valuable Books."


The translation for صحف، is pages.

The translation of كتب، can be Books or Writings.

So, then it becomes like this:


:A messenger from Allah, reading purified pages, containing valuable writings."

Now, it is obvious that pages contain writings. Any page always contains writings. Why we need Allah to tell us, that in the Quran pages, there are valuable writings?

The first is emphasizing they purify the pages of Quran that is. The next one is emphasizing it holds what causes humans to become upright. The translations don't do it justice. Purifying pages should be better translation. That Quran purifies the heart. The next thing is this purification causes the human to rise up and be upright and stand for justice.

The "upright religion" hence is linked both to purifying the soul and being upright.

It links to Mohamad (s) being a proof in that, his proof will die, if his successors are not followed. The Quran contains what points to the upright religion, but the heart must be purifying itself to see the upright religion and what we are to stand for. As you know most Muslims don't see Ahlulbayt (a) in Quran and this is due to Iblis and what he cast regarding it.

This goes back to helping God's Messengers. Bani-Israel also had Musa (a) who was a clear proof and his proof would continue in his successors.

This goes also with the fact that we can't purify ourselves through Quran, unless, we upheld the teachings and stand for what they teach. And won't uphold without purifying ourselves.

They go together the intention to purify and repent, and act on knowledge. True knowledge these days is linked to sorrow, because of what occurred.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The first is emphasizing they purify the pages of Quran that is. The next one is emphasizing it holds what causes humans to become upright. The translations don't do it justice. Purifying pages should be better translation. That Quran purifies the heart. The next thing is this purification causes the human to rise up and be upright and stand for justice.

The "upright religion" hence is linked both to purifying the soul and being upright.

It links to Mohamad (s) being a proof in that, his proof will die, if his successors are not followed. The Quran contains what points to the upright religion, but the heart must be purifying itself to see the upright religion and what we are to stand for. As you know most Muslims don't see Ahlulbayt (a) in Quran and this is due to Iblis and what he cast regarding it.

This goes back to helping God's Messengers. Bani-Israel also had Musa (a) who was a clear proof and his proof would continue in his successors.

This goes also with the fact that we can't purify ourselves through Quran, unless, we upheld the teachings and stand for what they teach. And won't uphold without purifying ourselves.

They go together the niya to purify and repent, and act on knowledge. True knowledge these days is linked to sorrow, because of what occured.

To me, the description does not fit with Muhammad, because Muhammad did not recite Quran, page by page. He recited verse by verse. Sometime just a few verse, within a Surran. In the Quran, Allah never described the Quran this way, in any of the verses. But, again that is the Bahai view. Thanks for the discussion.
But Baha'u'llah recited page by page. So, Baha'u'llah fits this.

 

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To me, the description does not fit with Muhammad, because Muhammad did not recite Quran, page by page. He recited verse by verse. Sometime just a few verse, within a Surran. On the Quran, Allah never described the Quran on this way, in any of the verses. But, again that is the Bahai view. Thanks for the discussion.

It doesn't say page by page.

 

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A better translation is purifying scrolls. Not pages. For example ancient scrolls are said to be the "scrolls of Ibrahim and Musa". It's the same word used there. You have to see Arabic, and understand.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It doesn't say page by page.

True. But it says, He recites pages. Muhammad did not recite pages. He recited verses. The terminology for revelations in Quran is verse. But Baha'u'llah specifically referred to His revelations as pages صحف

 

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True. But it says, He recites pages. Muhammad did not recite pages. He recited verses. The terminology for revelations in Quran is verse. But Baha'u'llah specifically referred to His revelations as pages صحف

Surahs means structures. What are these structures? They are scrolls. He did recite them, he just didn't recite them all at once and they were revealed over time.

Surah Fatiha can be said to be a structure (Surah) and also a scroll.

It doesn't say "all at once".

Also Quran doesn't say he recited verses anywhere. It says he recites "signs". I've stated it before, there are more signs in Quran then actual verses. That it contains more proofs and insights then amount of verses.

 

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I also noticed the Imams (a) said they are the scrolls. This may hint more to what I stated about the mysterious letters they all hold a jurisdiction in Quran by having chapters that follow till the next letter pertaining more so one Ma'asoom over another.

Yaseen (Mohammad (s)) (scroll with chapters under it)
Taha (Ali (a)) (scroll with chapters under it)
Aliflaamraa (Fatima (a)) (scroll with chapters under it)
Ainsinqaaf (Hassan (a)) (scroll with one chapter under it)
Hameem (Hussain (a)) (scroll with chapters under it)
Taseen (Ali (a) son of Hussain (a)) (scroll with one chapter under it)
Taseenmeem (Mohamad son of Ali (a)) (scroll with chapters under it)
Aliflammeemsaad (Jaffar (a)) (scroll with chapters under it)
Qaaf (Musa (a)) (scroll with chapters under it)
Noon (Imam Ali Reda (a)) (scroll with chapters under it)
Kaafhaayaa-ainsaad (Mohammad AlJewad (a)) (scroll with one chapter under it)
Saad (Ali AlHadi (a)) (scroll with chapters under it)
Aliflammeem (Hassan Alaskari (a)) (scroll with chapters under it)
Aliflammeemraa (Imam Mahdi (a)) (scroll with one chapter under it)

Fatiha is only Surah not under jurisdiction of one of the mysterious letters. Of course, Aliflaammeem and aliflamraa are disjointed in their jurisdictions, but, this doesn't change them being scrolls, they just discontinued, then recontinued which is fine.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the back to the Maitreya.

To put this in perspective the Maitreya is another Messenger.

So that would mean the Maitreya came before Muhammad, or Muhammad had to also be the Maitreya? If not the Maitreya was still to come, which would then be a quandary for Islam and Muhammad being the last Prophet.

The Baha'i writings have Baha'u'llah as fulfulling the Maitreya Prophecies.

Regards Tony

 

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So the back to the Maitreya.

To put thus in perspective the Maitreya is another Messenger.

So that would mean the Maitreya came before Muhammad, or Muhammad had to also be the Maitreya? If not the Maitreya was still to come, which would then be a quandary for Islam and Muhammad being the last Prophet.

The Baha'i writings have Baha'u'llah as fulfulling the Maitreya Prophecies.

Regards Tony

I don't know about Maitreya too much, but Imam Mahdi (a) is a universal Messenger but not a Nabi. He will perform miracles, revive the Quran and Sunnah, but he won't bring new scripture. In Surah Baqara it says from the Messengers are those who God talked to, meaning, not all of them are Anbiya. But about Anbiya, said he revealed the book with them. In Surah Hajj, we also find not every Nabi is a Messenger either. All Messengers God speaks too of course, it can't be imagined otherwise, but what it meant in Surah Baqara is in context of talking to them as a channel to humanity so they aren't all Anbiya.

Muslims got this mixed up. There is Messenger Nabis and non-Nabi Messengers and non-Messenger Nabis. The roles are linked so most are both, but sometimes there are exceptions. Our Imams became Messengers but they were not Anbiya.

He might or might not fit the Prophecies of Maitreya in Buddhism I don't know enough about it to say one way or another.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't know about Maitreya too much, but Imam Mahdi (a) is a universal Messenger but not a Nabi. He will perform miracles, revive the Quran and Sunnah, but he won't bring new scripture.

What is a Univeral Messenger without a Universal Message?

That is not logical. If it is offered only the Quran will be used, then that is also not logical, as the Quran already had 1500 years to become universal and Islam was unable to use it to unite all humanity.

Thus it is evident that Mahdi will bring from Allah more Words, another Message that shows us how we are all One under One God.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

What is a Univeral Messenger without a Universal Message?

That is not logical. If it is offered only the Quran will be used, then that is also not logical, as the Quran already had 1500 years to become universal and Islam was unable to use it to unite all humanity.

Thus it is evident that Mahdi will bring from Allah more Words, another Message that shows us how we are all One under One God.

A doctrine built on a few verses from the Quran, for Muhammad and the Quran to be the last Message, does not mean that doctrine will be correct, as Allah always shows us men's doctrines not in tune with Allah's Will for humanity.

Regards Tony

The Quran treasures are yet to be known by most humans. I've explained the Quran of Ali (a) and how he collected chronological way it was revealed and what Mohammad (s) said pertaining to each verse. This would be useful in app. It shows also wisdom in 23 years - with Imam Mahdi (a) knowing all this.

The Quran has been only scratched surface wise, it's deep wonders are yet to be experienced by most humans.

And the reason why they don't experience it, is because they disconnected from Imams (a). But with Imam Mahdi (a), it's wonders will come and it will be sufficient as a revelation along with his words reviving the Sunnah.

The message will be his own words. Just as Ghadeer declaration of Ali (a) was words of Mohammad (s) but vital for the message to be kept intact and for humans to see Ali (a) in Quran.

And it's not just interpretation, it's about application. Mohammad's (s) companions had right interpretation, but not all of them supported Ali (a) and Ali (a) didn't want his followers killed and so spared them their blood by not fighting Abu Bakr and Umar.

And so we need a leader to apply the Quran. Application needs help and supporters. It needs firmness of followers.

 

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To us, it's not the message or revelation that is the problem. It's the lack of supporters and sincere people. Lack of us pushing each other out of hypocrisy into sincere worship of God and helping and supporting Imams (a).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's mainly by use of similar sophistry and arguments Bahais do to us that they would have to accept other people claiming to be Prophets.

You are ignorant of Arabic. Surahs are each a writing. Writings (plural) together form a writing.

Anyways, I've decided for my sanity. I won't talk to Bahais anymore. I'm done with this dialogue.

Salam Link

The issue we all face Link, is one of Logic and reason and more importantly, is that we can never speak for Allah. We do not have the authority of interpretation of the Words given by Allah.

If we use Logic and reason, we can see whenever men have built expectations about Allah and how Allah will appear in the future, there has not been one event where that has happened, a zero percentage.

Yet men still preach Allah will fulfill their visions, their doctrines, their desires.

That is where the sanity is tested Link, it is tested with our own responses to that Logic and Reason, our inability to look with new frames of references, look at things with new eyes and hear things with new ears.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Salam Link

The issue we all face Link, is one of Logic and reason and more importantly, is that we can never speak for Allah. We do not have the authority of interpretation of the Words given by Allah.

If we use Logic and reason, we can see whenever men have built expectations about Allah and how Allah will appear in the future, there has not been one event where that has happened, a zero percentage.

Yet men still preach Allah will fulfill their visions, their doctrines, their desires.

That is where the sanity is tested Link, it is tested with our own responses to that Logic and Reason, our inability to look with new frames of references, look at things with new eyes and hear things with new ears.

Regards Tony

Salam Tony,

Allah (swt) speaks in non-deceptive way. To me day of judgment is clearly not what Bahais say nor is there is ambiguity with end of Anbiya.

People going astray is despite Quran having a perfect solution. I'm not saying our scholars represent true Islam and true interpretation of Quran.

But the Mahdi (a) will through the Quran and miracles and reviving the Sunnah, be able to deliver a clear message.

The Imams (a) have also left treasures. These treasures with Quran and holding on to their light spiritually, will guide us through and back to be able to bring the Mahdi (a) back if God wills.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And the reason why they don't experience it, is because they disconnected from Imams (a). But with Imam Mahdi (a), it's wonders will come and it will be sufficient as a revelation along with his words reviving the Sunnah.

Are you able to tell me what I am missing?

I offer what I personally get from the Quran.

For me is entire submission to Allah. That my life becomes one of service to all humanity. That I follow the laws and guidance in prayer and fasting. That I treat all humanity as my brothers and sisters.

I could offer a lot more, but maybe it is easier for you to offer back to me what I am missing, before I offer what I gain from the Message of Muhammad.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Salam Tony,

Allah (swt) speaks in non-deceptive way. To me day of judgment is clearly not what Bahais say nor is there is ambiguity with end of Anbiya.

People going astray is despite Quran having a perfect solution. I'm not saying our scholars represent true Islam and true interpretation of Quran.

But the Mahdi (a) will through the Quran and miracles and reviving the Sunnah, be able to deliver a clear message.

The Imams (a) have also left treasures. These treasures with Quran and holding on to their light spiritually, will guide us through and back to be able to bring the Mahdi (a) back if God wills.

Salam Link

May peace be with you dear brother.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Are you able to tell me what I am missing?

I offer what I personally get from the Quran.

For me is entire submission to Allah. That my life becomes one of service to all humanity. That I follow the laws and guidance in prayer and fasting. That I treat all humanity as my brothers and sisters.

I could.offer a lot more, but maybe it is easier for you to tell me what I am missing, before I offer what I gain from the Message of Muhammad.

Regards Tony

The Imam of our time guides in mysterious ways, and Bahais believe there is no leader from God right now. I don't understand your spirituality but it's not in sink with Quran or Ahlulbayt (a) teachings about the Imam, name of God, and light of his face.

The spiritual kingdom is important in Quran and in needs a light/guide that telepathically links you to himself and guides you away from the shadows and devil whispering.

The Imam is the way God guides, and this is not about hadiths. Yes hadiths are important, the du'as they taught important, but it's about connecting to him and him empowering your sword and being the sword of God with you to help you defeat the dark forces that don't want us to see God in his Glory, beauty and Majesty.

He also can connect you to his family (his predecessors), but he is the light of the world, and God's great tiding in this world, and greatest sign and his handhold and is the reminder Quran calls to.