Relationship between Judaism and Christianity

[Zardoz]

Excellent question.

But better yet, when was it ever Jewish?

The original Jesus movement in Galilee is almost a mystery. Apocalyptic traveling Jewish teacher within a community of Zealots doing baptism, does not in any way reflect todays Christianity or that of any of the authors.


To answer your question I will say the day Jesus dies the movement was no longer Jewish, it was over.

What started afterwards, has nothing to do with his movement, and everything to do with the Hellenist who found importance with the mythology surrounding his martyrdom after death.

Not entirely true. There were pockets of actual Jews practicing what he taught, at least until persecuted out of existence by the fourth century or so.

Ebionites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sojourner]

I still don't think it was ever a Jewish sect.

In a way, you're right. I don't believe it was ever "recognized" by the Jewish authorities as a "sect," such as the Pharisees. BUT the earliest Xtians in Jerusalem certainly thought of themselves as Jewish! And they intended to remain Jewish. They attended Synagogue and afterwords met in homes for the Agape' meal. Until the Jews finally cordially invited them not to return to Synagogue, that is.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In a way, you're right. I don't believe it was ever "recognized" by the Jewish authorities as a "sect," such as the Pharisees.

When were the Pharisees "'recognized' by the Jewish authorities as a 'sect'"?

 

[sojourner]

When were the Pharisees "'recognized' by the Jewish authorities as a 'sect'"?

Well, they're not a "sect," but they were a specific group that was recognized. The Xtians weren't recognized as a specific group within Judaism.

 

[paarsurrey]

Relationship between Judaism and Christianity

The relationship is of being “Chosen Ones” and of the “original sin”.
Am I right ?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regards

 

[outhouse]

Not entirely true. There were pockets of actual Jews practicing what he taught, at least until persecuted out of existence by the fourth century or so.

Ebionites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have no historicity to that, and your own link explains that very clearly as to why.


You may need your memory jogged a bit, much of what is known about jesus, and his teachings, was nothing more then typical Galilean Judaism.


When you can tell me the differences of what Jesus taught and John I am all ears.


Baptism came from John, so did most of the parables attributed to Jesus.

 

[outhouse]

Well, they're not a "sect," but they were a specific group that was recognized. The Xtians weren't recognized as a specific group within Judaism.

They were not even all that specific.


You had some that mirrored Sadducees and others that mirrored Zealots.

While a group, they were wide and diverse as any first century follower of Judaism.

Jay was probably looking for an answer like Josephus, as he did view them as a sect

 

[Zardoz]

...Until the Jews finally cordially invited them not to return to Synagogue, that is.

It's a bit more complex than that. The split was when they refused to participate in the ill-fated Bar Kokhba revolt. But it was later Xian persecution that was their end, then they quietly re-integrated with the mainstream Jewish community.

 

[Zardoz]

...from John, so did most of the parables attributed to Jesus.

You have no historicity to that, either. Hard to prove anything of that era, isn't it?

But, that John & Yeshua and their followers were contemporary and interacted is pretty good odds. That there were a later group called Ebionites is historical.

 

[paarsurrey]

You have no historicity to that, either. Hard to prove anything of that era, isn't it?

But, that John & Yeshua and their followers were contemporary and interacted is pretty good odds. That there were a later group called Ebionites is historical.

I agree with you.

Regards

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I understand how a religion that was founded by a person who contravened and refuted Jewish Law could ever be considered a Jewish sect. Jesus broke Jewish Law and sanctioned the breaking of Jewish Law.

 

[outhouse]

I understand how a religion that was founded by a person who contravened and refuted Jewish Law could ever be considered a Jewish sect. Jesus broke Jewish Law and sanctioned the breaking of Jewish Law.

No no no no

How did the Galilean break Jewish law?


Or did he break one Hellenistic sects rules that did not apply to REAL jews

Or was it just written that he broke these rules to help justify the perversion of Judaism by saying their god did it too?


Or some of each?



Jesus was a Galilean Zealot, following a traditional Galilean Judaism. End of story.

 

[outhouse]

You have no historicity to that, either. Hard to prove anything of that era, isn't it?

But, that John & Yeshua and their followers were contemporary and interacted is pretty good odds. That there were a later group called Ebionites is historical.

The Ebionites have not history dating back to Jesus apostles or any early followers.


While it is hard to prove anything from that era, a complete lack of evidence does line up probabilities, of what may or may not have happened.


We know Jesus took over Johns movement and that Jesus was taught by John.

And the gospels try and hide this.

So it is 100% plausible that the NT and parables attributed to Jesus are in fact, Johns parables and teachings, as well as other Galilean typical parables.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

No no no no

How did the Galilean break Jewish law?


Or did he break one Hellenistic sects rules that did not apply to REAL jews

Or was it just written that he broke these rules to help justify the perversion of Judaism by saying their god did it too?


Or some of each?



Jesus was a Galilean Zealot, following a traditional Galilean Judaism. End of story.

He healed on the Sabbath, his followers gleaned wheat on the Sabbath, he touched and dined with people considered unclean by the Law's standards. He broke the Law.

End of story.

 

[outhouse]

He healed on the Sabbath, his followers gleaned wheat on the Sabbath, he touched and dined with people considered unclean by the Law's standards. He broke the Law.

End of story.

When were those laws put into place?


How do we know he actually did these things?


Many laws were broken by what would become Christians. The Hellenist had been breaking them for hundreds of years.


IN CONTEXT to be a Jew in the first century ment simply swearing off all pagan gods. [on one extreme] There were some groups that tried to uphold the law to the letter, There were also groups of Jews that did not.

Not following laws was normal first century Judaism, thanks for playing. There was no orthodox Judaism at all during this time.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

When were those laws put into place?

They were supposedly instituted at Sinai. Working on Sabbath is forbidden in the Torah, so is touching and eating with people who are deemed unclean. He broke the Law.

How do we know he actually did these things?

Synoptics testify that he did these things. He wasn't a Zealot, they were conservative. He was a radical and not very conservative when it came to the traditional.

 

[outhouse]

Do you think if someone got hurt on the Sabbath, a friend or family member would let them suffer?

 

[outhouse]

Synoptics testify that he did these things.

They testify he walked on water


He lived in a desert, and was often homeless like John who ate bugs and honey is that unclean?


Trust me, if you ever viewed first century Nazareth you would understand unclean.

Even Sepphoris you could smell 5 miles away.

He wasn't a Zealot

You do not know this.


There is no reason why he would not be a typical Galilean Zealot.

Ill trust Reza Aslan over you, that and my own study.

Even the encyclopedias call Galileans all Zealots.

 

[outhouse]

They were supposedly instituted at Sinai. .

A mythical place?

 

[outhouse]

You do not have an idea how complex and diverse and multi cultural first century Judaism was, do you?