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Religion: *#@$&~^!!!!

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
You know what? I think we're having trouble here because terms weren't defined. Clearly, we don't use words in the same way. Here's how I use the terms being used:

Religion = a set of practices + a mythology (often, though not always, taken to be literal history) to explain and/or illustrate the practices + a specific way of viewing the world and humanity.

Theism = belief in a God-concept, distinct from atheism, which is non-belief in a God-concept.

Therefore, theistic religions contain God-concepts of some sort.

Any time a prefix is added to the definition of the word theism, it cannot negate the word "theism." Therefore "pantheism" is not a negation of "theism", but an addition to it.

Deism = a concept wherein there was a Creator of some sort, which can be theistic or not, which no longer interferes. Therefore, if a deist believes the Creator was a God, that person is a theist. On the other hand, if a deist believes the Creator was aliens, that person is not a theist.

Christianity = a religion based around the worship of Jesus Christ, containing many denominations (some of which are almost individual religions separate from mainstream Christianity, such as Mormonism), each containing their own interpretations on the teachings of Jesus.

When I use these words, this is what I think of. These are primarily based on my own studies and insights.

Now, when we apply this definition of religion, it turns out that religion in general cannot be called good or bad. Specific religions can be called good or bad depending on their results. Christianity, based on this definition, is too broad to be called good or bad, but specific forms of it can be, depending on their harm vs. help.

Plus, Christianity is based on the worship of Jesus Christ. Therefore, it cannot be used as a microcosm for all religions, because in this, it differs from other religions.

Therefore, the argument that religion is a bad thing to base life on based on some of the more traditional Christian teachings, which not all denominations follow, let alone other religions, is false.
 
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Tathagata

Freethinker
But I do believe any individual who has a rationale, non-deluded view of history and the cosmos could logically destroy anyone in a debate who believes in a God that intervenes on earth

You are sadly mistaken then. William Lane Craig (Christian) destroyed the well known physicist Laurence Krauss (Atheist) in a debate. In fact, if you went against Lane Craig, you'd probably run away crying from embarrassment.

See here:

[youtube]jHHTYbusTmw[/youtube]
YouTube - Evidence for God: William Lane Craig vs Lawrence Krauss (2 of 6) - Opening Remarks

.
 

Twig pentagram

High Priest
BTW:

the·ism

–noun 1. the belief in one god as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation ( distinguished from deism).

2. belief in the existence of a god or gods ( opposed to atheism).

de·ism


–noun 1. belief in the existence of a god on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation ( distinguished from theism).

2. belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.




The first definitions of these words are distinguished from each other, but the second definitions are compatible. Therefore, deism and theism are only distinguished in certain contexts.
Theism and Deism are not the same. You really have to play a great game of semantics in order to make them so.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Theism and Deism are not the same. You really have to play a great game of semantics in order to make them so.

I don't think I claimed that they were the same, but saying that deism isn't always independent of theism.

You can be a theistic deist, or an atheistic deist.
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
Theism in the specific sense. In the sense that intellectuals who debate religion use the word. I think my first post was more then evident that I intended the first definition you provided. Based on the entirety of my post why would you imply I was using the word theism to mean deism. If i wanted to use the word in a broad sense to mean God in general, I would have said deism.

Considering that all Christian sects broke off the Orthodox Church I don't see how that argument didn't make sense to you.

Totally unrelated, every time I see your name, I think of this song:

[youtube]CSvFpBOe8eY[/youtube]
YouTube - System Of A Down - Chop Suey!
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
We always need to keep in mind that people will prove themselves to you whether they mean to or not. In fact, I have found that most people will see what they want to see rather than what is really there. I found this true of theists, atheists, deists, agnostics, and any others I forgot. That means that if wakeup sees all theists and deists as depraved, that is the way he or she sees them. But it doesn't mean that is the way all of them are. Stereotypes never fit anyone.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It's about time humanity wake up and adopt a morality that is thought-out, reasoned, argued and discussed.
...much like you've done here in the OP, I assume...
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
"theist religions." I assumed you would have the brain power to understand that would be religions whose anthropomorphic God intervenes in the human world. Presumably a "merciful" God who rewards or dams it's creation to eternity in hell.
Perhaps you meant Monotheistic Abrahamic Religions.
You really should say what you mean.

I never said all religions.
No, you made a gross generalization that included all theistic religions.
... this post was directed toward any thiest religion]
Which would include Caodaism, [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Damanhur, [/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Eckankar, Hare Krishna, most Unitarian Universalists, [/FONT]Yazidi, Zoroastrianism and Sikhism, among many other theistic beliefs.

Im just going to stop you at your premise. "Theism = Belief that God exists."
that's absolutely wrong. Tha'ts deism sir.
Theism in it's broadest sense includes Deism.

I should know.
 

Tathagata

Freethinker
I thought the book accepted by all denominations was the Dhammapada.

The Dhammapada is just a small part of the Tipitaka. In fact, the Dhammapada is found at the end of the Sutta Pitaka, the Second Basket of the Tipitaka. So the Dhammapada isn't even the introduction of the Tipitaka let alone a separate document. I honestly don't know why it's so popular, it seems arbitrarily chosen out of the center of the Tipitaka. .
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
The Dhammapada is just a small part of the Tipitaka. In fact, the Dhammapada is found at the end of the Sutta Pitaka, the Second Basket of the Tipitaka. So the Dhammapada isn't even the introduction of the Tipitaka let alone a separate document. I honestly don't know why it's so popular, it seems arbitrarily chosen out of the center of the Tipitaka. .

Ah, like the Bhagavad-Gita is just a small part of the Mahabharata.

Thanks. I'll be sure to read that text.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Perhaps you meant Monotheistic Abrahamic Religions.
You really should say what you mean.

But Tumbleweed, for Wakeup to say what he means, he must first understand something of what he's talking about. And, it seems, Wakeup is constitutionally opposed to knowing jack about anything he blabs about.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I came here to state my opinions and receive feedback. Atheism is a belief just like any other. Religion should not be shielded from being scrutinized for the same reason math and science shouldn't. Again it baffles me that an individual could claim to eat the body of another human being every Sunday or claim becoming pregnant without conception is possible or the despicable act of circumsition commanded by God in the bible. Not a single person would bat an eye at you if you said that. While I simply state my opinions and its a outrage.
See, here's the problem. Real good example right here in this post. You clearly don't understand Xy, and you bash it based upon such misunderstanding. I suggest it's unfounded accusations that are vile, and not religion in general.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The moment you as a human begin to die is the moment when you stop speaking about things that matter. I don't take prejudice very lightly. The Christian God specifically justifies murder as punishment for the act of homosexuality in the old testament. Although it is the old testament it is still the inspired word of God.

How about the God that promised to reward the 19 men that flew plains into the twin towers in the name of Allah.

I could go on all day. I extend the same suggestion to you sir
Let's be realistic: The Hebrew Law is written as such. There is no such thing as Christian anything in the Hebrew texts. Additionally, what was written was written by humans, through a particular cultural lens. No one takes that injunction literalistically anymore. Further, "inspired word of God" does not mean "infallible," or "immutable."
It never has. Again, you're holding all religion hostage to your misunderstanding.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The eastern Orthodox Church claims to be one of the only secularists religions that still holds the apostolic faith unchanged from 40 years after jesus's death. Secularist Christian Churches reformed from the Eastern Orthodox Church,according to them, and much of history. The Orthodox Church does in fact believe the old testament was the inspired word of God. God justified death as punishment for homosexual acts. You can break off the original teachings of the apostolic faith 2000 years ago and say that part of the bible, or the old testament as a whole, doesn't have any relevance today. But it is still the book that predicted the coming of Jesus, of which your religion would then be founded on.
The religion wasn't founded on texts. It was founded on faith. There was no "Bible" when Xy began. In fact, there was no "Bible" as we know it for nearly 400 years.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Honestly, I don't need to know anything about religion to denounce it. It does indeed sound ignorant, but having a strong understanding of history and science does not leave room for the existence of superstition.
Well, seeing as religion isn't superstition, I'd say your gross misunderstanding has rendered your denunciation pointless.
 

RitalinO.D.

Well-Known Member
Science has yet to become some magic wand that denounces all of religion. You will be surprised by it's limits.

You just don't waste an opportunity to bash science, regardless of the topic eh? :facepalm:

Just because Christians do not contribute to the efforts of science means very little.

Apparently you don't realize that there are Christian/Jewish/Muslim scientists....



Let's not forget some of the damage that science has done- vaccines, anti-bacterial soap, disinfectant, etc.- this is why viruses and whatnot get deadlier.

What's especially hilarious about this statement is you are using a scientific process (evolution) to try and prove a point of yours, when you have completely denounced evolution in other posts. Apparently your hippocracy is endless.

Also, so you are saying that instead of creating vaccines, we should have let polio/malaria/tuberculosis/AIDS/any other fatal disease go untreated and wipe out the human population? I seriously doubt you actually think before you start typing this crap.


A God is simply necessary.

I'd love to hear your explanation for this gem.
 

Sum1sGruj

Active Member
You just don't waste an opportunity to bash science, regardless of the topic eh? :facepalm:

Apparently you don't realize that there are Christian/Jewish/Muslim scientists....

What's especially hilarious about this statement is you are using a scientific process (evolution) to try and prove a point of yours, when you have completely denounced evolution in other posts. Apparently your hippocracy is endless.

Also, so you are saying that instead of creating vaccines, we should have let polio/malaria/tuberculosis/AIDS/any other fatal disease go untreated and wipe out the human population? I seriously doubt you actually think before you start typing this crap.

I'd love to hear your explanation for this gem.

Saying that I don't believe in 'evolution' by it's definition is your own warped logic. I never denounced evolution, only that I don't believe that there is a 2 billion year history of it.

Maybe if we never made flu vaccines, the flu wouldn't be a problem today. Maybe if we didn't use anti-bacterial soap, some people wouldn't get sick at the slightest thing. Maybe if they actually gave us the cure for AIDS, poor people wouldn't die from it. It's amazing that that they know AIDS is likely to turn into something worse, but they still hand-feed the public other vaccines.
Maybe you should open your eyes.

All these things contribute to the de-evolution of man, but who cares, right? Medicine has already been shown to affect the brain and body in many adverse ways. I do not know of any true Christian who pops anti-depressants or depends on medicine in general except for when it is critical. And it just so happens that Christians at large seem to do just fine.
It seems to me that, miraculously, atheism and science bears a lot of issues.
 
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