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Religious Nationalism in the US
- Thread starter The Hammer
- Start date
In today's definition, generally speaking, not a good thing. It is a very diverse and complex subject IMV. Sometimes I think people mistake patriotism for nationalism.
For Christians, I think the major problem about Christian nationalism is that they take away the emphasis of preaching the Gospel to trying to force a belief system on people, which one cannot.
In some sense, I think in today's political climate, people is making "Christian nationalism" more of a problem than it really is. Probably, within the definition of nationalism, people are making this issue of Christian nationalism so big to try to hide the fact that they want to create their own brand of nationalism.
We want to make sure we don't forget about the history of black slavery and what has happened to the American Indian. At the same time there seems to be a real effort to erase the Christian heritage of the nation. Probably what is happening is that simply Christians are pushing back the attempt to erase our Christian national heritage and it is perceived as Christian nationalism. (not that there aren't some christians that are nationalists)
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, who's gonna make the decisions? DeSantis and his appointees from Tallahassee? There's not much "parental involvement with that approach.
Even though there needs to be some guidelines from the state, I would suggest that most decisions that involve local school districts should be made at the local level. But that's not what DeSantis is doing with his "Don't say gay", "woke", CRT, and his library and textbook book bans, which he then grandstands. Why can't you see through what he's doing?
Billy Graham, whom I used to watch and read with my parents, said his single biggest mistake as a pastor was to get too involved into secular politics as he supported Richard Nixon. You voted for Trump twice and now support DeSantis, so I would encourage you to not go with what Graham found to be a serious problem of compromising his ethics.
There was plenty of indication of what Trump was like even in the 2016 race as all one had to do was to listen to his hate-filled campaign rallies that were 100% incompatible with Jesus' "law of love". And now we see DeSantis doing much the same, although not as much against people as against educational programs and even the Mouse.
You know how I fell about ya, Ken, and that hasn't changed. However, I have to "call it the way I see it" as it would not fit into what I believe to be right if I didn't. I hope you understand this and why.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Maybe with a minority but certainly not a majority of Americans. If any religion is under attack here, I can propose two that are much more prone to this.
I think "who" is already answered by the process. If it needs to be adjusted, it has to go through the process.
Politicians will be politicians... you name them, they are all grandstanding. ALL the kettles are black. (not being racist here)
We are talking about the agenda driven issue under the guise of "black history". Politics is not the issue.
I really don't have a problem with any discussion with you. But I can be hard headed at times. Comes with age. WAIT A MINUTE! You are older!
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Beware of "false equivocates" as all politicians are not equal. If they were all the same, then why even vote?
Especially beware of the neo-fascist element within not only the Republican Party but also what we're seeing in many other counties today. Trump certainly is one and DeSantis is talking and taking certain actions as if he's going in this direction: Neo-fascism - Wikipedia
"...at times"??? I've seen softer granite.I really don't have a problem with any discussion with you. But I can be hard headed at times.
I prefer the words "more mature".
OK... now we are in your favorite topic... politics.
(since we have finished with education)Points of fascism:
Hmmm... we better not go there... you might get upset.
vulcanlogician
Well-Known Member
When I use the term, I generally mean those who think national policies should be "Christian" policies, and that non-Christian citizens ought to be subject to laws that treat specific "Christian values" (ie. Christian edicts concerning sexual morality and things like that.) Notice I put "Christian" in quotes because some values listed in the Bible could be called Christian, but in actuality are universally agreed upon values... even among secularists. "Thou shalt not murder or steal," could be deemed "Christian values (and they are in a way) but they also are NOT specifically Christian in a very real way.
Additionally, there still exists the idea in some circles that America is a "Christian nation" and Christians ought to be in charge. I could link you to a sermon by a pastor saying this nation will fail if we allow lesbians and gays to occupy public office. (Although I'm sure you're already aware that those ideas are out there.)
To me, this is worst and most egregious kind of Christian nationalism... the power hungry, entitled kind. Though admittedly, you'll find this take on things more among fundamentalists and less among mainstream Christians. People call woke activists "entitled" a lot these days. And there is perhaps a grain of truth to this complaint. But you gotta stand in AWE of the raw unbridled sense of entitlement that Christianity has enjoyed over the past dozen or so centuries. It makes "woke entitlement" seem like a non-issue. Do some reading about blasphemy laws in Europe and the US some time. Educational stuff.
It's interesting when you look at something like American slavery... who supported it and who opposed it. There were many, many Christian abolitionists in the 1800s who used the Bible to justify their position that slavery ought to be outlawed. But on the other hand, proponents of continued slavery also supported their arguments by citing Bible verses, saying (correctly) that nowhere in the Bible is slavery specifically condemned. It's another reason why I put "Christian" in quotes above. Which side was more Christian? The abolitionists or the supporters of slavery?
The influence of Christianity on our early nation hasn't been erased yet. You can find all that information in non-biased sources. It's obvious that some of our founding principles are based on Christian teachings (it's a sticky issue.) But what makes our founding history even more interesting is there was also a big push toward secularism at the inception of our nation. Christian values may have influenced some of our founding fathers, but it's just as much true that they were early opponents of Christian nationalism. Read the Constitution to see that they were very concerned with religion of any kind influencing how the United States government operated.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That's OK with me but let me highly recommend this book anyway: "Strongmen: From Mussolini To the Present" by Ruth Ben Ghiat.
She's the daughter of Holocaust survivors and a professor of political science at NYU who specializes in fascism.
Trump is a neo-fascist whether one likes it or not as he fits the general characteristics to a T. I studied fascism here in the States, in Poland [went through 3 of the death camps with 6 survivors], and in Israel [twice]. I also taught a 3-week unit on it and other forms of genocide in my poli sci course.
Now, that doesn't mean nor imply I am somehow always right, but I've "been around the block" on this. I also studied NAZI literature, especially Der Sturmer.
Anyhow, enjoy the weekend and have at least some mercy on your congregation, OK!
As I mentioned, there is an "effort" to erase it though as you said, "hasn't been erased yet"
I don't think that it was a big push toward secularism. My view is that very statement is an effort to erase history. Christian values didn't influence "some" of our founding fathers but rather almost all the founding fathers.
They weren't concerned about religion influencing how the governing operated but rather wanted to make sure the government didn't "operate religion".
Most people forget that it was the united of "individual states" with "state rights" being the main focus. If you look at the "states" you will find that Christianity indeed was in and through all.
I understand the precept. The problem I have is that it seems to be a "one way street". In other words, we shouldn't have "Christian values" imposed but somehow it is ok to have "secular values" imposed.
I'm not saying there is a solution... just that it is a one way street.
yes, there are Christians who say "Christians ought to be in charge" - which then makes this not a Republic but rather Theocratic country. Though I understand that in some sense the majority rule but hopefully the Supreme Court keeps that at bay. Yet, if we look at the individual states, its beginnings were a "Christian nation". History, State Constitutions, Supreme Court ruling and even invocations at all levels bear this out.
I don't think there is any group of people that don't have power hungry and entitles kind. It is just that today "Christianity" is the target today
Can't argue that there were Christians on both sides. But the reason that Christian abolitionist won is because you actually have to twist scriptures to support slavery. Law of firsts or precedent dictates God's will.
I understand that we wish there was a direct quote and certainly within the Bible there are statements that deal with the reality of slavery, but it wasn't God's original design no more than divorce was His design.
Of course many people take all the Jewish TaNaKh and want to apply it to Christendom - but it is a different book and covenant.
But Jesus came to set the captives free and, IMV, came as an abolitionist to set it right.
Regardless, I am with you in not wanting Christian nationalism where people are forced fed the Christian love-message because then it isn't love.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
You would have a tough time convincing some people of that.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Sure. Childabusers think they own children, just like human traffickers think they own women. Nevertheless, our society does not recognize either.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The USA was built on the principles of individual rights, liberties and Religious freedom. If nationalism is how free people wish to practice their freedom of religion, it is within their Constitutional rights. It is not these Christians who are burning Churches and Temples. This comes from the Anti-religious Atheist and Leftist who do this. This topic is really about pushback forming against the criminals in power.
The USA was also built on the principle of limited government control. The USA was a unique experiment in human history away from the age old way of the monarchies of Europe and the world, which controlled everything in their countries. There was no middle class and one was stuck in a social position.
The Left prefers big government, all the way to Socialism and an overbearing regulatory state. If any US government is in violation; tries to move back to the monarchy, the Constitution says the people are obliged to step up and reform that country of the people, by the people and for the people. The Christian Nationalist do not tax you or push your country into a huge deficit connected to Socialist style entitlements; 70% of the debt. This is a clear violation of the Constitution and limited Government; $30 trillion in debt that enslaves once free people.
The Republican investigative committees recently questioned Biden's Attorney General and the Director of the FBI. They asked them the question, why the government has only investigated and prosecuted members of pro-life groups, but has not enforce the law for the pro-abortion people, who have burnt churches and family clinics? This government also went after parents and tried to define them as domestic terrorists, if they accept the Woke religions force taught in schools.
The Government is not supposed to target religious groups and ignore all Lefty crimes; 2020 Summer of Lefty riots. This corrupt disfunction in Government needed push back, which is what the Religious people are doing. The answer, by the Attorney General, for his dual standard in enforcement was, "well the religious people do their crimes during the day, while the Left sneaks around at night. It was easier to go after day people, instead of the night stalkers. The FBI must be very incompetent these days. It is no longer about solving crime, but making numbers for one side; trying to establish a religion.
The Constitution does not allow the government to make law that regulate or establish religion; bullying only the religious with the FBI and then endorsing Woke and Gender Religions via teacher unions. The woke religion is based on plagiarizing the religious concept of Original Sin; if you are white; Adam and Eve, you must pay for the past, since your sin is because of that past; original sin and not your own actions. This is in violation of the establishment clause.
This corrupt dual standard is the root of the problem and why many people are using the freedom of religion, since it has the power to get Government to stop trying to establish bizarre alternate reality religions, that can deemed pathology by science. Once the government is placed back on its leash, then this Nationalism will not be needed.
Freedom of speech was violated when the Swamp backed government started to censor its citizens. This would have been buried and denied if Twitter had not been set right. This move back toward monarchy control is in full violation of the Constitution. This did require a push back by Christianity.
We are coming up on Saint Patrick's day. He drove the snakes out of Ireland. This was a metaphor; snake=Pagan religions. Maybe in the spirit of St Patrick, we can drive the Snakes out of Washington, and restore freedom for all.
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Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I never liked the idea it takes a village to raise a child.
Usually it brings out the extreme like North Korea or China.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
The summary of this rambling screed is as follows: this nation was founded on freedom, thus people have the freedom to deny freedom.
Which of course is imbecilic and nonsensical.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Not only is that idiom not relevant to the discussion, it's clear that you don't understand its meaning.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
No. It's clear some desperately want government overreach as a priority when it comes to someone else's children.
Of course, obvious cases of real actual abuse excepted.
what for?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
EXACTLY! That's why I don't go too deep with you.
Because you like to go 'round and 'round in circles?
I can't even get you to answer my questions.
This is the issue at hand. No goal posts have been moved here. You outright said that teachers are grooming and indoctrinating kids with this stuff.
Is that seriously what you think is going on?
You do realize that young adults grow up to be actual adults, right? Actual adults have sex and drive cars. Are you under the impression that schools should only be teaching kids and young adults things that they'll need in their direct and immediate future, or do you maybe suppose that we're supposed to be educating kids to prepare them for life?
That wasn't my question, was it? See how hard it is to get you to answer a simple question?Pretty simple unless you are sooo for what is happening, you simply ignore reality.
Better than making it up, I suppose.
If you don't know the culture of today... I really can't help you. Get a pair of glasses or take the dark ones off?