Return of Christ

[Ingledsva]

I fail to see what "break-away" groups has to do with anything. Paul was accepted by Peter, who was a direct follower of Christ and a witness to the Resurrection. That is a biblical. All of that other stuff about different disciples who started their own groups or sects is completely irrelevant to Paul's testimony, especially considering 1Corin 15:3-7.

These verses PROVE that all Christians DID NOT agree with, or ACCEPT Saul/Paul.


As I said - I believe he purposefully sidetracked Christianity from the Jewish Roots, with Jesus as the Special HUMAN Messiah sent from God, - into pagan ideas - Jesus as God - trinity - etc.



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[Ingledsva]

Highly unlikely. Paul was WRITING TO CHURCHES already extant, he didn't "invent" Christianity.

I didn't say he invented Christianity. I think he twisted the understanding, adding in Pagan concepts.


Jesus is not God. He was claiming to be the awaited, special, HUMAN, Messiah, sent from God. He was supposed to bring about final Judgment.


Turning him into a God was totally foreign. God is ONE - ALONE -. There is no trinity.




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[sojourner]

I didn't say he invented Christianity. I think he twisted the understanding, adding in Pagan concepts.


Jesus is not God. He was claiming to be the awaited, special, HUMAN, Messiah, sent from God. He was supposed to bring about final Judgment.


Turning him into a God was totally foreign. God is ONE - ALONE -. There is no trinity.




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But that's just responsible curation of myth. Stories with meaning are retold and given new meaning for a different time and different set of circumstances. Nothing new is ever invented, but good ideas are constantly being reinvented in new and relevant ways. Paul's Xy was as "real" and relevant to his context as the earlier Xy. Xy continues to evolve such that it remains fresh and relevant.

 

[Pegg]

They were Christian Jews = Hellenists.

Obviously, from the texts shown, we have more then one group of Christians that did not trust Paul, - that thought he was changing scripture, - and they thought he was dangerous enough to try to kill him, - as he had once tried to kill them.


I decided to just look it up for you guys. From Exploring the Book of Acts Chapter 6 | Grace Communion International


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"Luke turns away from the conflict between the Sanhedrin and the church leaders to introduce two groups within the Jerusalem church. They were the “Grecian” Jews (Greek, Hellenistai, or “Hellenists”) and “Hebraic” Jews."


"The Hellenistic Jews are those who speak mainly Greek, and formerly lived outside of Judea and Galilee. But they had settled in Jerusalem — retired, as it were, to the homeland. Nevertheless, they still have affinities with lands of the Jewish dispersion from which they came. The Hebraic Jews are those who speak mainly Aramaic, and were born in Jerusalem or Judea."


"Some commentators feel that the Hellenistic Jews are more devoted to the ancestral religion and culture than the Aramaic-speaking Jews."



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Many of us feel that Paul took the beliefs of Jesus, - away from their Jewish roots, - and Jesus as the HUMAN Jewish Messiah, - into Pagan concepts - Godhood, etc.



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i'll tell you what the problem is here, when Paul was a newly converted christian, there were no established congregations outside of Jerusalem. The Christians were still centered in jerusalem and Judea/Galilee/Nazareth made up only of the jewish followers of Jesus.

Christianity didnt begin to spread abroad until shortly after Pauls conversion...it spread abroad because Paul was being hunted down by the jews and he went out into other regions to preach. The book of Acts shows all the missionary tours of Paul and where he went.

So I really cant put a lot of credit to the information you've got there about greek speaking 'christians' prior to Pauls conversion. The bible christian writer calls them 'jews'....if they were christians, then the 'christian' writer would have not have called them jews.

 

[InChrist]

Is it? I find Psychoslice's notion intriguing -- and quite probably correct from a metaphysical standpoint. Why can Jesus not be, in a sense, an amalgam of the human story, fashioned in the form of an individual's story, in order to impart a theological understanding of who we are and why it matters?

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying. I certainly believe that Jesus transforms and spiritually indwells a believer's life because that is what the scriptures teach and has occurred in my life and that of countless other regenerated Christians. But this is something entirely different than the eastern spirituality/new age concept of a person claiming that they are "Christ" or have attained "Christ-consciousness as Jesus did" because the scriptures reveal that the Son of God became flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ and He is a unique, one and only Being-fully God/fully human. I consider this revelation of God's Son of utmost importance and for someone to claim they are Christ or that His second coming has already occurred in them SELF, contrary as foretold in the scriptures, is an attack upon the Person of Christ and blasphemy against God's word in my view.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Mark 14:62

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying. I certainly believe that Jesus transforms and spiritually indwells a believer's life because that is what the scriptures teach and has occurred in my life and that of countless other regenerated Christians. But this is something entirely different than the eastern spirituality/new age concept of a person claiming that they are "Christ" or have attained "Christ-consciousness as Jesus did" because the scriptures reveal that the Son of God became flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ and He is a unique, one and only Being-fully God/fully human. I consider this revelation of God's Son of utmost importance and for someone to claim they are Christ or that His second coming has already occurred in them SELF, contrary as foretold in the scriptures, is an attack upon the Person of Christ and blasphemy against God's word in my view.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Mark 14:62

I tend to agree with this viewpoint. For various reasons.

 

[Pegg]

I'll do my best to think of something before Christ returns



Amen! You know I'm only kidding. Christ said those who are not against us are for us (Mar 9:40). Nevertheless, it is still fun proving you guys wrong

Hey i have one more little tidbit for you....(just because i like you )


What do you think Jesus meant by saying this:

John 4:19  The woman said to him: “Sir, I perceive you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshiped in this mountain; but YOU people say that in Jerusalem is the place where persons ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father.


What does this mean to you?

 

[Ingledsva]

i'll tell you what the problem is here, when Paul was a newly converted christian, there were no established congregations outside of Jerusalem. The Christians were still centered in jerusalem and Judea/Galilee/Nazareth made up only of the jewish followers of Jesus.

Christianity didnt begin to spread abroad until shortly after Pauls conversion...it spread abroad because Paul was being hunted down by the jews and he went out into other regions to preach. The book of Acts shows all the missionary tours of Paul and where he went.

So I really cant put a lot of credit to the information you've got there about greek speaking 'christians' prior to Pauls conversion. The bible christian writer calls them 'jews'....if they were christians, then the 'christian' writer would have not have called them jews.

That is hilarious! Jesus was a Jew.


All of his 12 apostles were Christian Jews.



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[Pegg]

That is hilarious! Jesus was a Jew.


All of his 12 apostles were Christian Jews.

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Im sorry Inglesdsva, i should have looked a bit deeper into what you were saying.

When i looked up Hellenists i found that there is more then one meaning to the expression.

It can mean people of greek ancestry in general. It can also mean jews who speak greek. It can also mean christans who speak greek.

So you are correct, hellenists could mean greek speaking christians. But the timing of events also helps us to understand why this is the case....if you look at Acts 6 the writer clearly calls the christians 'greek speaking jews' 
Now in those days when the disciples were increasing, the Greek-speaking Jews began complaining against the Hebrew-speaking Jews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution. 2 So the Twelve called the multitude of the disciples together and said: “It is not right for us to leave the word of God to distribute food to tables. 3 So, brothers, select for yourselves seven reputable men from among you, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary matter; 4 but we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” 5 What they said was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit, as well as Philip, Proch′o·rus, Ni·ca′nor, Ti′mon, Par′me·nas, and Nic·o·la′us, a proselyte of Antioch. 6 They brought them to the apostles, and after praying, they laid their hands on them.
7 Consequently, the word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying very much in Jerusalem; and a large crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith.

this is obviously speaking of Christians. But this was before Pauls time. If you continue to read Acts chapter 6, it goes on to speak about the disciple Stephen who was stoned with Saul/Paul watching on when he was against crhistians.


Acts 6:8 Now Stephen, full of divine favor and power, was performing great wonders


So yes, hellenists could have meant greek speaking chrisitans...but it can also mean greek speaking jews depending on the time frame. In Acts chapter 11 we see that the name 'Christian' was first given to the disciples and this was shortly after Pauls conversion:
Acts 11:22 The report about them reached the ears of the congregation in Jerusalem, and they sent out Bar′na·bas as far as Antioch. 23 When he arrived and saw the undeserved kindness of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all to continue in the Lord with heartfelt resolve; 24 for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and faith. And a considerable crowd was added to the Lord. 25 So he went to Tarsus to make a thorough search for Saul. 26 After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.

So basically, by the time Paul was preaching the word of the Lord, the christians had been given the name 'christians' and so in that verse you quoted earlier, the 'greek speaking jews' really were not 'christians', they were hellenistic jews who had come from the greek speaking areas.

 

[sojourner]

i'll tell you what the problem is here, when Paul was a newly converted christian, there were no established congregations outside of Jerusalem. The Christians were still centered in jerusalem and Judea/Galilee/Nazareth made up only of the jewish followers of Jesus.

Christianity didnt begin to spread abroad until shortly after Pauls conversion...it spread abroad because Paul was being hunted down by the jews and he went out into other regions to preach. The book of Acts shows all the missionary tours of Paul and where he went.

So I really cant put a lot of credit to the information you've got there about greek speaking 'christians' prior to Pauls conversion. The bible christian writer calls them 'jews'....if they were christians, then the 'christian' writer would have not have called them jews.

Yes, there were congregations outside Jerusalem. Saul was on the Damascus Road -- to persecute Xtians who lived outside Jerusalem.

 

[sojourner]

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying. I certainly believe that Jesus transforms and spiritually indwells a believer's life because that is what the scriptures teach and has occurred in my life and that of countless other regenerated Christians. But this is something entirely different than the eastern spirituality/new age concept of a person claiming that they are "Christ" or have attained "Christ-consciousness as Jesus did" because the scriptures reveal that the Son of God became flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ and He is a unique, one and only Being-fully God/fully human.

Xy is an Eastern religion. It wasn't "Westernized" until the Great Schism in 1054.

Jesus was a unique human being -- and we, the church, are his Body. That's also a teaching of the Faith. That's about as mystic, metaphysical and Eastern as it gets.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

These verses PROVE that all Christians DID NOT agree with, or ACCEPT Saul/Paul.

Um, no it doesn't, Ingle. No where in the scriptures does it say that they disagreed with his TEACHINGS. It say that they did not accept him at first because of his past. And to really prove the point, Acts 9:19-20 states "Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God."

So are you saying that they did not agree with his preaching that Jesus is the Son of God?

Second, notice that it says he began to preach in the SYNAGOGUES that Jesus is the Son of God. Why is that significant? Because we know from the Gospels that the Jewish leaders did not BELIEVE that Jesus was the Son of God, but Paul, and former Jew and Christian persecutor, went directly to the SYNAGOGUES and preached that Jesus is the Son of God.

As I said - I believe he purposefully sidetracked Christianity from the Jewish Roots, with Jesus as the Special HUMAN Messiah sent from God, - into pagan ideas - Jesus as God - trinity - etc.

I can make a case for the Trinity without using any of Paul's writings...and I am sure others can as well. So how can Paul be the culprit of such beliefs if the Gospels are giving the same implications?

Are you saying that the Gospel authors were influenced by Paul's writings?

 

[Pegg]

Yes, there were congregations outside Jerusalem. Saul was on the Damascus Road -- to persecute Xtians who lived outside Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is one city of Isreal. Of course there were christians living in other regions of Isreal like Galilee where some of the Apostles were from. But if you are talking about other regions such as Greece or Rome or Macedonia, no. Those congregations were formed after Pauls conversion which may have been several years after christianity was first established in Isreal.

 

[sojourner]

Jerusalem is one city of Isreal. Of course there were christians living in other regions of Isreal like Galilee where some of the Apostles were from. But if you are talking about other regions such as Greece or Rome or Macedonia, no. Those congregations were formed after Pauls conversion which may have been several years after christianity was first established in Isreal.

You said:

when Paul was a newly converted christian, there were no established congregations outside of Jerusalem.

Antioch was established before Paul. Antioch is a Greek city.

 

[Pegg]

You said:

Antioch was established before Paul. Antioch is a Greek city.

in the context of the greek speaking nations, there were no congregations at that early stage....but i should have said 'isreal' not Jerusalem, sorry for the confusion. There was a sizable jewish community in Antioch and some of those jews became christians before Pauls conversion according to the scriptures.

 

[sojourner]

in the context of the greek speaking nations, there were no congregations at that early stage....but i should have said 'isreal' not Jerusalem, sorry for the confusion. There was a sizable jewish community in Antioch and some of those jews became christians before Pauls conversion according to the scriptures.

You just refuted your earlier claim. Thanks.

 

[InChrist]

Xy is an Eastern religion. It wasn't "Westernized" until the Great Schism in 1054.

Jesus was a unique human being -- and we, the church, are his Body. That's also a teaching of the Faith. That's about as mystic, metaphysical and Eastern as it gets.

There has always been a difference between Eastern mystical religions and the revelation which the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob gave to the nation of Israel concerning Who He is and His nature. I am referring to the difference between the Creator God and a human being with the false idea that a person may have that they can become God through some form of SELF practice, realization or awareness.

According to the scriptures Jesus is a unique God/human Being, not just a human being. Yes, believers in His church are called the body of Christ and I believe the scriptures use this metaphorical language because Christ continues His work in the world through those He has redeemed, the Church, but that does not make a human being the Personal Being Jesus Christ.

And getting back to the topic of this thread, it is this Personal Being Jesus Christ whom the scriptures say will literally return to the earth as He promised.

 

[sojourner]

There has always been a difference between Eastern mystical religions and the revelation which the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob gave to the nation of Israel concerning Who He is and His nature. I am referring to the difference between the Creator God and a human being with the false idea that a person may have that they can become God through some form of SELF practice, realization or awareness.

According to the scriptures Jesus is a unique God/human Being, not just a human being. Yes, believers in His church are called the body of Christ and I believe the scriptures use this metaphorical language because Christ continues His work in the world through those He has redeemed, the Church, but that does not make a human being the Personal Being Jesus Christ.

And getting back to the topic of this thread, it is this Personal Being Jesus Christ whom the scriptures say will literally return to the earth as He promised.

Oh, I see. So the church being the body of Christ is metaphoric, while Jesus is a literal person who will come back. Tell me how you know this.

 

[InChrist]

Oh, I see. So the church being the body of Christ is metaphoric, while Jesus is a literal person who will come back. Tell me how you know this.

I read the word of God and believe it.

 

[sojourner]

I read the word of God and believe it.

Yeah, well, the bible doesn't specifically say which is metaphor and which is literal. Sorry, the "God said it; I believe it; that settles it" argument doesn't wash.