Return of Christ

[Ingledsva]

Um, no it doesn't, Ingle. No where in the scriptures does it say that they disagreed with his TEACHINGS. It say that they did not accept him at first because of his past. And to really prove the point, Acts 9:19-20 states "Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God."

So are you saying that they did not agree with his preaching that Jesus is the Son of God?

Second, notice that it says he began to preach in the SYNAGOGUES that Jesus is the Son of God. Why is that significant? Because we know from the Gospels that the Jewish leaders did not BELIEVE that Jesus was the Son of God, but Paul, and former Jew and Christian persecutor, went directly to the SYNAGOGUES and preached that Jesus is the Son of God.



I can make a case for the Trinity without using any of Paul's writings...and I am sure others can as well. So how can Paul be the culprit of such beliefs if the Gospels are giving the same implications?

Are you saying that the Gospel authors were influenced by Paul's writings?

The Bible does not actually say Jesus is God/part of a trinity.


The Hellenists indeed did NOT believe Jesus was God.




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[sojourner]

The Bible does not actually say Jesus is God/part of a trinity.


The Hellenists indeed did NOT believe Jesus was God.




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Correction: "the bible does not explicitly say..." But it is certainly implied throughout.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

The Bible does not actually say Jesus is God/part of a trinity.


The Hellenists indeed did NOT believe Jesus was God.




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Yeah, what sojourner said...it does not explicitly say it, but it explicitly implies it.

 

[Pegg]

You just refuted your earlier claim. Thanks.

Ah, yeah, thats why i said 'sorry for the confusion'

no need to state the obvious

 

[XIII-Legion]

Why do you think he says he comes 'as a thief'?


Do thieves usually come out visibly to everyone? Or do you think they come and go without anyone actually seeing them?

Which is why you won't see him either. (1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 16:15).

 

[Ingledsva]

Correction: "the bible does not explicitly say..." But it is certainly implied throughout.

Actually it does not. It is being read with a "tradition" filled mind.


He isn't claiming to be God/part of a trinity.


He is claiming to be the awaited Jewish Messiah - whom was a special man, sent from God.




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[sojourner]

Actually it does not. It is being read with a "tradition" filled mind.


He isn't claiming to be God/part of a trinity.


He is claiming to be the awaited Jewish Messiah - whom was a special man, sent from God.




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Since the Bible is part of the Tradition, that's the way it was intended to be read.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Actually it does not. It is being read with a "tradition" filled mind.


He isn't claiming to be God/part of a trinity.


He is claiming to be the awaited Jewish Messiah - whom was a special man, sent from God.

Was he so special that he told people to honor him the same way they honor the Father...John 5:23?

Was he that special? Really?

 

[InChrist]

Actually it does not. It is being read with a "tradition" filled mind.


He isn't claiming to be God/part of a trinity.


He is claiming to be the awaited Jewish Messiah - whom was a special man, sent from God.




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Jesus claimed to be more than a special man and more than the awaited Messiah, although He was both of these. He also claimed to be the Son of the Living God.

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17

Along with that I believe the scriptures emphasis the triune nature of God by repeatedly using language as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[Pegg]

Which is why you won't see him either. (1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 16:15).

we see him right now


Jesus came to power at precisely the time the Hebrew scriptures said he would come to power. And the sign he gave is occurring all around us every day.

 

[Ingledsva]

Jesus claimed to be more than a special man and more than the awaited Messiah, although He was both of these. He also claimed to be the Son of the Living God.

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17

Along with that I believe the scriptures emphasis the triune nature of God by repeatedly using language as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

As you have been told before - many people are sons of God in the Bible - in fact many people are also "anointed," such as King David, etc.


Jesus is claiming to be the One Special Son of God - the awaited Messiah, who would bring about the end, - and final Judgment.


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[Ingledsva]

Since the Bible is part of the Tradition, that's the way it was intended to be read.

Actually, the Bible is the Bible.


Traditions are the ideas of man tacked onto it.


Jesus is not YHVH, and there definitely is not trinity in the Bible.



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[savagewind]

we see him right now


Jesus came to power at precisely the time the Hebrew scriptures said he would come to power. And the sign he gave is occurring all around us every day.

The Greek scriptures says his power began two thousand years ago

Matthew 28:18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth...."

Even the NWT does not say "will be given" but says "has been given" so it was his then. What other power came to him "at precisely the time the Hebrew scriptures said he would"? And when do You say it was?

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. So the high priest said to him: “I put you under oath by the living God to tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him: “You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

John 3:35
The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

Will give? No! Has given. When it was written it had already happened.

 

[sojourner]

Actually, the Bible is the Bible.


Traditions are the ideas of man tacked onto it.


Jesus is not YHVH, and there definitely is not trinity in the Bible.



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Correction: The bible does not stand outside the Tradition that created it. As long as you don't understand that, you have no business in this argument.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

As you have been told before - many people are sons of God in the Bible - in fact many people are also "anointed," such as King David, etc.


Jesus is claiming to be the One Special Son of God - the awaited Messiah, who would bring about the end, - and final Judgment.

Calling himself the "One Special Son of God" wouldn't have been a death sentence according to the law though, Ingle. They wanted to put him to death because they understood full well what he was saying/implying.

Lets just take Jesus out of the equation for a moment. Now take any other human being in history...which one of these human beings can ever truthfully say "Honor me the same way you honor the Father"?

Tell me which one?

No other human being in history is worthy of such honor, and no other holy man or woman would ever make this claim. But Jesus said "Honor me the same way you honor the Father"...Ingle, that is the absolute HIGHEST honor anyone can receive....and for Jesus to say this, this could only mean that Jesus equal to the Father...and if he is equal to the Father, he must be God.

 

[Pegg]

No other human being in history is worthy of such honor, and no other holy man or woman would ever make this claim. But Jesus said "Honor me the same way you honor the Father"...Ingle, that is the absolute HIGHEST honor anyone can receive....and for Jesus to say this, this could only mean that Jesus equal to the Father...and if he is equal to the Father, he must be God.

I dont think this means 'honor me instead of the father' ... nor does it mean 'worship' him.

Jesus never sought to take the honor or worship we give to God away and have it for himself.

Did he ask anyone to stop honoring the Father and honor him instead???

 

[Ingledsva]

Calling himself the "One Special Son of God" wouldn't have been a death sentence according to the law though, Ingle. They wanted to put him to death because they understood full well what he was saying/implying.

Lets just take Jesus out of the equation for a moment. Now take any other human being in history...which one of these human beings can ever truthfully say "Honor me the same way you honor the Father"?

Tell me which one?

No other human being in history is worthy of such honor, and no other holy man or woman would ever make this claim. But Jesus said "Honor me the same way you honor the Father"...Ingle, that is the absolute HIGHEST honor anyone can receive....and for Jesus to say this, this could only mean that Jesus equal to the Father...and if he is equal to the Father, he must be God.

Actually him being a rabble-raiser, countering the Priests, and claiming to be the awaited Messiah, got him killed.

And I might add that he said he was going to his death, and that it had to happen.

When you read the Christian Bible there is no reason to believe Jesus is God; and there is no trinity mentioned anywhere in there.

He gets the honor as the Special awaited ONE sent from the father to bring Judgment.


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[Ingledsva]

Actually, the Bible is the Bible.


Traditions are the ideas of man tacked onto it.


Jesus is not YHVH, and there definitely is not trinity in the Bible.

Correction: The bible does not stand outside the Tradition that created it. As long as you don't understand that, you have no business in this argument.

You misunderstand what I said.


There are differences between what the Bible actually says, and LATER tradition.


For instance there is no "trinity" in the Bible. That is just later tradition.


There is no "tribulation" in the Bible. That is from later tradition - that mistranslated texts.


There is no Lucifer in the Bible - but Christian tradition has fallen angel crap made up about him, none the less.


Jesus isn't Emmanuel - but we have songs calling him such - because later Christians - again - mistranslated - and turned Isaiah's son into a future Jesus.


And there is no Jesus as God in the Bible. That is just later tradition as well.


He came from a Jewish ONE GOD culture, and always gave the honor to the God, and said his power was given from God.


He never says he is the God. He never says there is a trinity. These would be very important things for him to make known, - don't you think?



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[sojourner]

You misunderstand what I said.


There are differences between what the Bible actually says, and LATER tradition.


For instance there is no "trinity" in the Bible. That is just later tradition.


There is no "tribulation" in the Bible. That is from later tradition - that mistranslated texts.


There is no Lucifer in the Bible - but Christian tradition has fallen angel crap made up about him, none the less.


Jesus isn't Emmanuel - but we have songs calling him such - because later Christians - again - mistranslated - and turned Isaiah's son into a future Jesus.


And there is no Jesus as God in the Bible. That is just later tradition as well.


He came from a Jewish ONE GOD culture, and always gave the honor to the God, and said his power was given from God.


He never says he is the God. He never says there is a trinity. These would be very important things for him to make known, - don't you think?



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A clear example that you simply don't understand the nature of the bible or the nature of the Tradition. As I asserted earlier. You're just digging your grave deeper here.

 

[Ingledsva]

A clear example that you simply don't understand the nature of the bible or the nature of the Tradition. As I asserted earlier. You're just digging your grave deeper here.

How so?

There is a big difference between Jewish traditions and Tanakh, that bring us the Bible, and later traditions that are made up by people not understanding what the texts actually say.


Sheol becomes a flaming fiery torture realm, etc.


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