Return of Christ

[Pegg]

You are right, it doesn't say or mean 'honor me instead of the father", he said "Honor me the same way you honor the Father".



Read the scripture, Pegg. This is one of those scriptures where you will have to hire someone to help you misinterpret it.

Let me ask you this: a man is told to love his wife in the same way he loves himself

Does that mean that the man is his wife?

 

[Ingledsva]

You are right, it doesn't say or mean 'honor me instead of the father", he said "Honor me the same way you honor the Father".



Read the scripture, Pegg. This is one of those scriptures where you will have to hire someone to help you misinterpret it.

Baloney. The second sentence (highlighted Red & Blue) says it all.


Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


In other words if you don't honor the Regent - sent by the KING - then you are not honoring the King - that sent him.



Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:


In other words - God has bestowed "honors" on Jesus - by calling him his son - giving him power -and anointing him to a special task.


*

 

[InChrist]

BTW everyone, there is a thread discussing the trinity and also at least one about the deity of Christ. These are great topics and two of the most important issues I can think of for anyone to have correct understanding, but this thread is supposed to be about the return of Jesus Christ.:yes:

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Baloney. The second sentence (highlighted) says it all.


Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. \

In other words if you don't honor the Regent - sent by the KING - then you are not honoring the King - that sent him.

Good stuff. I would take that into consideration, if it weren't for the fact that Jesus said that if you've seen him, you've seen the Father (John 14:9). So not only should Jesus be honored the same way the Father is honored, but if you've seen Jesus, you've seen the Father. There are just too many parallels that Jesus drew between himself/the Father. Too many.

Could Elijah, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Job, Nathan, John the Baptist, Paul: Could any of these holy men rightfully say "Honor me the same way you honor God, and if you've seen me, you've seen God"?

No.

So why was Jesus able to truthfully say these things while these other holy men weren't? Was was so special about him? He is God, that is what.

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

In other words - God has bestowed "honors" on Jesus - by calling him his son - giving him power -and anointing him to a special task.

Phil: 2:5-9 states why.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Let me ask you this: a man is told to love his wife in the same way he loves himself

Does that mean that the man is his wife?

Ok Pegg, if you think that they are the same...I want you to go around your Kingdom Hall telling me to honor you the same way they honor the Father. See how well that goes, and when they question you, the same thing you told me above, bring that to their attention.

 

[savagewind]

The lady has asked you very nicely if you would take this conversation about Jesus is God vs Jesus isn't God to the other thread. It is off topic here.

 

[Pegg]

Ok Pegg, if you think that they are the same...I want you to go around your Kingdom Hall telling me to honor you the same way they honor the Father. See how well that goes, and when they question you, the same thing you told me above, bring that to their attention.

you didnt answer the question.

The bible says that a man is to love his wife as he loves himself.

Does it mean that the man is his wife?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

you didnt answer the question.

The bible says that a man is to love his wife as he loves himself.

Does it mean that the man is his wife?

No...first off, the fact that you are asking this question is based off of a false definiton of the Trinity...Trinitarians dont believe that the Son and the Father are the same person..we believe that the Son and the Father are two distinct persons that share the same Deity. So the question is faulty since it is based on a false presupposition. Second, as i said...Jesus said to honor him as you should honor the Father...and that if you see him, you see the Father...no.other person in history is worthy enough to make those statements but Jesus.

 

[Pegg]

No...first off, the fact that you are asking this question is based off of a false definiton of the Trinity...Trinitarians dont believe that the Son and the Father are the same person..we believe that the Son and the Father are two distinct persons that share the same Deity.

and the perfect equivalent of that would be a husband and his wife.

They are two separate individuals who share the same identity.

Mr Smith and Mrs Smith are two separate people with the same identity.


So when a man is told to love his wife as he does himself, its not really saying that he should just love himself is it. Its saying that he should love this other individual in the same way he loves himself.

Honoring Jesus as you do the Father doesnt mean that Jesus is the Father. It just means that we should show him similar 'honour'. *notice 'honour' and not 'worship'

So the question is faulty since it is based on a false presupposition. Second, as i said...Jesus said to honor him as you should honor the Father...and that if you see him, you see the Father...no.other person in history is worthy enough to make those statements but Jesus.

sure, but neither of those statements say that Jesus is God.

Jesus is the perfect reflection of everything his father stands for. If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father because...

Hebrews 1:3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being,

its not because Jesus is God... its because Jesus is exactly 'like' God.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

and the perfect equivalent of that would be a husband and his wife.

They are two separate individuals who share the same identity.

Mr Smith and Mrs Smith are two separate people with the same identity.

Well, that would depend on what is meant by "identity". A husband and a wife are both human, right? Their nature is identical, yes...they both have human nature. I need to know what you mean by "identity", because after all; you made it seem as if it meant the Father/Son are the same PERSON...and that is not even true even if we are talking about the union of a man and his wife, they may be "one flesh", but they are not the same person.

So when a man is told to love his wife as he does himself, its not really saying that he should just love himself is it. Its saying that he should love this other individual in the same way he loves himself.

Right, but there is a difference. I love my dog..but not the same way I love my son. I love my wife, but not the same way I love God. There are different degrees/levels of love, right? If my highest degree of love is SUPPOSED to be to God, and only he is worthy of that degree...then my love for anyone else falls wayyy short of my love of God. If I am to love my wife the same way I love God, then that is putting my wife on the same playing field as God, which seems rather, ridiculous.

But Jesus said that the honor that we should give him is on the same level as God, so the question is...is that true for any other mere creation of God? If not, then why is it true when Jesus said it?

Honoring Jesus as you do the Father doesnt mean that Jesus is the Father. It just means that we should show him similar 'honour'. *notice 'honour' and not 'worship'

Pegg, no one is saying that Jesus is the Father!! Trinitarians are saying that every act of worship, honor, glory, praise, etc. that we give to God, we can give to Jesus, because they are both equally God.

sure, but neither of those statements say that Jesus is God.

Jesus is the perfect reflection of everything his father stands for. If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father because...

Hebrews 1:3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being,

its not because Jesus is God... its because Jesus is exactly 'like' God.

Now notice what it says..."exact representation of God". So Jesus is "like" God, right?

So if Jesus is like God, then what is the difference?

Is Jesus omniscient like God?
Is Jesus omnipresent like God?
Is Jesus omnibenevolent like God?
Is Jesus ominpotent like God?

If you answer "no" to any of these questions, then that would mean that Heb 1:3 is false. God is all of those things above, and for someone to be an exact representations of those things, then that person would himself have to be God.

I don't see how on one hand Jesus can be the "exact representation" of God, but on the other hand, there are a million differences between Jesus and God (on your view), and based on these differences, the representation cant possibly be too "exact" after all, can it?

 

[viole]

Is Jesus omniscient like God?
Is Jesus omnipresent like God?
Is Jesus omnibenevolent like God?
Is Jesus ominpotent like God?

If you answer "no" to any of these questions, then that would mean that Heb 1:3 is false.

Matthew 24:36:

"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows."

So, we are left with four possibilities:

1) Heb 1:3 is false
2) Matt. 24:36 is false
3) Jesus is not the (radiant) son in Heb 1:3
4) Jesus lied

Your call

Ciao

- viole

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Matthew 24:36:

"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows."

So, we are left with four possibilities:

1) Heb 1:3 is false
2) Matt. 24:36 is false
3) Jesus is not the (radiant) son in Heb 1:3
4) Jesus lied

Your call

Ciao

- viole

Ahh viole...back for another spanking? :yes:

John 21:17..the attribute of omniscient is given to Jesus by Peter, which Jesus didn't deny.

Rev 19:12 "His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself."

So based on that verse, Jesus knows something that the Father doesn't..yet the scripture is clear, that God knows everything.

So how can these scriptures be reconciled? One way is simple: Throughout the Gospels, there has always been a distinguishment between Jesus while he dealt with the limitations of being a human....and Jesus being God incarnate. Apparantly, it is within his power to take the form of a human and lack certain knowledge, but as God, retain such knowledge...and this is what was happening in the scripture you presented.

In the Revelation scripture, the author obviously thought it was obvious that the Father knows the name, and was implying that no one besides Jesus and the Father knew the name.

 

[Ingledsva]

Good stuff. I would take that into consideration, if it weren't for the fact that Jesus said that if you've seen him, you've seen the Father (John 14:9). So not only should Jesus be honored the same way the Father is honored, but if you've seen Jesus, you've seen the Father. There are just too many parallels that Jesus drew between himself/the Father. Too many.

Could Elijah, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Job, Nathan, John the Baptist, Paul: Could any of these holy men rightfully say "Honor me the same way you honor God, and if you've seen me, you've seen God"?

No.

So why was Jesus able to truthfully say these things while these other holy men weren't? Was was so special about him? He is God, that is what.



Phil: 2:5-9 states why.

John 14:9 is NOT saying Jesus is God.


Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me (understood, perceived, me,) my Father also ye would have known (understood, perceived,) and from this time ye know (understand, perceive) Him, and have seen (discerned, experienced, perceived) Him.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known (understood) me, Philip? he that hath seen (understood, perceived)me hath seen (understood, perceived) the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


Joh 14:16 And I will pray to the Father, and HE shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


Joh 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.



*

 

[Ingledsva]

Ahh viole...back for another spanking? :yes:

(1) - John 21:17..the attribute of omniscient is given to Jesus by Peter, which Jesus didn't deny.

(2) - Rev 19:12 "His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself."

So based on that verse, Jesus knows something that the Father doesn't..yet the scripture is clear, that God knows everything.

So how can these scriptures be reconciled? One way is simple: Throughout the Gospels, there has always been a distinguishment between Jesus while he dealt with the limitations of being a human....and Jesus being God incarnate. Apparantly, it is within his power to take the form of a human and lack certain knowledge, but as God, retain such knowledge...and this is what was happening in the scripture you presented.

In the Revelation scripture, the author obviously thought it was obvious that the Father knows the name, and was implying that no one besides Jesus and the Father knew the name.

(1) What? How do you figure Jesus telling them part of his mission includes death - makes him "omniscient?"


Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Joh 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.


You figure his "Father" God - can send him as a Messiah, - give him power to make miracles, - etc., but can't impart that death information?


*


(2) - Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

*

Rev 19:12 "His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself."


Revelation 2:17. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.”


*


Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God, and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty, and the Lamb are the temple of it.




*

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

John 14:9 is NOT saying Jesus is God.


Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me (understood, perceived, me,) my Father also ye would have known (understood, perceived,) and from this time ye know (understand, perceive) Him, and have seen (discerned, experienced, perceived) Him.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known (understood) me, Philip? he that hath seen (understood, perceived)me hath seen (understood, perceived) the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


Joh 14:16 And I will pray to the Father, and HE shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


Joh 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

I fail to see what any of this have to do with what I said.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

(1) What? How do you figure Jesus telling them part of his mission includes death - makes him "omniscient?"

Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Joh 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.


You figure his "Father" God - can send him as a Messiah, - give him power to make miracles, - etc., but can't impart that death information?


*


(2) - Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

*

Rev 19:12 "His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself."


Revelation 2:17. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.”


*


Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God, and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty, and the Lamb are the temple of it.

It would have been nice if you gave summaries of what you think those verses mean..otherwise, I don't see how either verse can serve as a defeater to what I said.

 

[Sonofason]

Unlikely, but possible?

There was a lot of support for the creations of Israel because of "Bible" prophecy. Not too hard to sell and be supported by a largely Christian nation.

Lets gather a bunch of people and call them Jews, then force a number of people living in the area to flee, lets call then non-Jews. Then with with all the people who we are calling Jews lets create a "Nation" and lets call it Israel. Why not Judea? that wouldn't fulfill the prophecy would it?

If you want to believe in the prophecy that's ok. Belief often creates the reality. Just without the belief nothing is really proven.

Belief explains many things but it doesn't really prove anything.

If Christ were to return, I kind of doubt he or she would get any better reception then last time. People prefer more to invest in their beliefs then the truth that is before them.

True believers are not going to have an opportunity to receive Christ the next time He comes. He will be coming as a thief in the night. Either the so called believers will already have their lamps filled with oil, or they won't. Those who don't aren't going anywhere. Those who do will be caught up to meet Him in the air. The time allotted to receive him is now.

And then after the marriage supper of the lamb, The Messiah Jesus will come to reign on this earth for thousand years.

 

[Ingledsva]

It would have been nice if you gave summaries of what you think those verses mean..otherwise, I don't see how either verse can serve as a defeater to what I said.

(1) Shows that Jesus is NOT "omniscient" which you said he was.


(2) Shows that all "that overcometh" "get names that no one else knows" it is nothing special. Are ALL that overcometh - omniscient? Are they Gods?


Both show Jesus IS NOT GOD.


The verses show that the two are different, ONE GOD, and a separate Jesus, and Jesus TELLS US - his power comes from GOD - NOT himself.



Jesus IS NOT God.



*

 

[Pegg]

Well, that would depend on what is meant by "identity". A husband and a wife are both human, right? Their nature is identical, yes...they both have human nature. I need to know what you mean by "identity", because after all; you made it seem as if it meant the Father/Son are the same PERSON...and that is not even true even if we are talking about the union of a man and his wife, they may be "one flesh", but they are not the same person.

if you can understand that a husband and wife are the same but are two different individuals, then why is it so hard for you to understand that God is God and Jesus is his son... a completely different individual?


You are so blinded by the trinity doctrine that you can't see the forest for the trees.

But Jesus said that the honor that we should give him is on the same level as God, so the question is...is that true for any other mere creation of God? If not, then why is it true when Jesus said it?

Because Jesus did not mean that we should worship him. We must honour Jesus as we honor God... but he never said that we must worship him as we worship God.

Do you know the difference between 'honour' and 'worship' ?

Worship means to 'serve'
Honour means to acknowledge the 'worthiness and respectability' of someone.

What does the bible tell us about Jesus honour?
Phil 2:9  For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

We must acknowledge that Jesus is Gods appointed savior... we do this by showing Jesus due honor and recognising his superior position. But never do the scriptures say that we must 'worship' Jesus. Why not? Because Jesus is not God.

Pegg, no one is saying that Jesus is the Father!! Trinitarians are saying that every act of worship, honor, glory, praise, etc. that we give to God, we can give to Jesus, because they are both equally God.

well they are wrong.

Even Jesus Christ himself said:

Matt 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

I would be taking my p's and q's from Jesus rather then trinitarians...don't you think Jesus teachings overide anything you hear coming from some others considering Jesus is the one who has been given 'all authority'?

If he says you should ONLY worship God then don't you think we should comply with that order?

Now notice what it says..."exact representation of God". So Jesus is "like" God, right?

So if Jesus is like God, then what is the difference?

Is Jesus omniscient like God?
Is Jesus omnipresent like God?
Is Jesus omnibenevolent like God?
Is Jesus ominpotent like God?

If you answer "no" to any of these questions, then that would mean that Heb 1:3 is false. God is all of those things above, and for someone to be an exact representations of those things, then that person would himself have to be God.

it doesnt mean Hebrews is false... it means you are wrong.

Jesus is a 'creation' who was 'mortal'
God was never created, nor has God ever been 'mortal'... yet Jesus was. If Jesus was God, he could not have died because God is 'immortal'

Do you recognise the difference between moral and immortal?

Immortal means 'unable to die' 'eternal' 'everlasting'... 'Cannot Die'
Mortal means 'perishable' and if someone is perishable, it means they did not always exist like us. Humans are mortal because our life can expire. Jesus was mortal...his life expired. And other angels like Satan is also mortal because the bible says he will be put to death which shows that his life is not eternal and immortal. If a life can end, it is mortal. Both spirit and flesh can be mortal... but God is NOT.

I don't see how on one hand Jesus can be the "exact representation" of God, but on the other hand, there are a million differences between Jesus and God (on your view), and based on these differences, the representation cant possibly be too "exact" after all, can it?

'the exact representation' means that Jesus was a perfect 'imitator' of his Father.

Everything God holds as valuable, Jesus likewise holds as valuable.
Everything God views as bad, Jesus likewise views as bad.
Everything God loves, Jesus loves.
EVery good quality of God, Jesus demonstrates in his own conduct perfectly.

He is a perfect 'reflection' of everything God stands for which makes him an 'exact representation' of the Father.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

if you can understand that a husband and wife are the same but are two different individuals, then why is it so hard for you to understand that God is God and Jesus is his son... a completely different individual?

Pegg...the Trinitarian view is that the Son and the Father are completely different individuals that share the same Deity, the "God" deity. Just like me and you are two different individuals that share the same nature...human.

You are speaking as if I am saying something contrary to what you are saying, I am not. The difference is that you don't believe that Jesus has the same nature of Deity as the Father.

You are so blinded by the trinity doctrine that you can't see the forest for the trees.

I would like to NOT say that you are attacking straw man...but you leave me with no choice.

Because Jesus did not mean that we should worship him.

We must honour Jesus as we honor God... but he never said that we must worship him as we worship God.

And my question is how is it that a "created" man is worthy of the same honor that you would give the Father? That is the question. Of course, we are to honor Jesus, but not as the same way we honor the Father...and it is based on the fact that they should be honored in the SAME WAY that we know that they are equal.

Do you know the difference between 'honour' and 'worship' ?

Depends on context.

Worship means to 'serve'
Honour means to acknowledge the 'worthiness and respectability' of someone.

Ok, so my question is, are we to honor John the Baptist the same way we honor the Father? Yes or no.

What does the bible tell us about Jesus honour?
Phil 2:9  For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Right!!! And just a couple verses before that it also states what Jesus have to GIVE UP for him to be in a position to where he would need to be exalted. If he had to "make himself nothing" in order to be exalted, then what was he before he made himself nothing???

We must acknowledge that Jesus is Gods appointed savior... we do this by showing Jesus due honor and recognising his superior position. But never do the scriptures say that we must 'worship' Jesus. Why not? Because Jesus is not God.

Pegg, the honor that we give God is the highest honor that we should give ANYONE. That includes our mother, father, grandparents...kings, emperors, presidents, etc. As high of honor as that is, how can the honor that we give Jesus be on the same level as the Father?

That is the question, Pegg. How is Jesus worthy of such an honor??

well they are wrong.

Well, I am sure "they" feel the same way about the Watch Tower.

Even Jesus Christ himself said:

Matt 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

And? That verse doesn't in any way negate anything that I've said.

I would be taking my p's and q's from Jesus rather then trinitarians...don't you think Jesus teachings overide anything you hear coming from some others considering Jesus is the one who has been given 'all authority'?

Yeah, it overides the Watch Tower very much so.

If he says you should ONLY worship God then don't you think we should comply with that order?

Right, only God...and God includes all three persons in the Trinity...The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We should worship only God, which includes all three of those guys lol. Sometimes "God" is used interchangably, and sometimes it is used as a distinguishing factor between the Father and the Son.

Now if the scripture said "worship only the Father", then you'd be cooking :yes:

it doesnt mean Hebrews is false... it means you are wrong.

Am I?

Jesus is a 'creation' who was 'mortal'
God was never created, nor has God ever been 'mortal'... yet Jesus was. If Jesus was God, he could not have died because God is 'immortal'

First off, no where in the bible does it say that Jesus was created. The only scripture you have to back up this whole "JESUS WAS CREATED" notion is the infamous Watch Tower rendering of 1 Corin 1:15, and the fact that the NWT had to add words to the bible (the word "other" is implemented in the text), that goes to show that the interpretation is based on an organization that is adding their theology to the bible, rather than simply letting the bible speak for itself.

Do you recognise the difference between moral and immortal?

Yes. Do you?

Immortal means 'unable to die' 'eternal' 'everlasting'... 'Cannot Die'
Mortal means 'perishable' and if someone is perishable, it means they did not always exist like us. Humans are mortal because our life can expire. Jesus was mortal...his life expired. And other angels like Satan is also mortal because the bible says he will be put to death which shows that his life is not eternal and immortal. If a life can end, it is mortal. Both spirit and flesh can be mortal... but God is NOT.

Irrelevant, because Jesus was not created.

'the exact representation' means that Jesus was a perfect 'imitator' of his Father.

So basically, you are saying that it is possible for a mere human being to live a morally perfect life without sin? Despite the bible saying we all sin and fall short of God's glory?

Everything God holds as valuable, Jesus likewise holds as valuable.
Everything God views as bad, Jesus likewise views as bad.
Everything God loves, Jesus loves.
EVery good quality of God, Jesus demonstrates in his own conduct perfectly.

You can say the same thing about all of the other holy men in history. Name me one prophet of God that those things didn't apply to. So what was so special about Jesus?

He is a perfect 'reflection' of everything God stands for which makes him an 'exact representation' of the Father.

So everything that God stood for, John the Baptist didn't stand for? Wow.