Return of Christ

[sojourner]

How so?

There is a big difference between Jewish traditions and Tanakh, that bring us the Bible, and later traditions that are made up by people not understanding what the texts actually say.


Sheol becomes a flaming fiery torture realm, etc.


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And it was Jewish Tradition that brought us the Hebrew texts. The texts are part of the Tradition, and cannot be separated from it. It was a mixture of Jewish and Gentile Tradition that brought us the Greek texts, and they, likewise, are part of that melded Tradition. The stories of Jesus were oral stories at first, and changed/grew/developed over time -- just as the Hebraic narratives did. Even though the texts don't explicitly cite the formal Trinity formula, they do imply that Jesus was Divine, and that that Divinity was part and parcel of God. Part of the Tradition. As that Tradition developed, a more formal and detailed understanding was reached. But there really is no such thing as "earlier" and "later" Tradition, for Tradition is Tradition; it lives across time, and develops over time -- and is developing still (which is one reason why Jews no longer stone people). There simply is no "corruption of outside influences" as many like to suppose, for Xy (unlike Judaism) is pan-cultural, and it will adopt concepts of the cultures of which it becomes part. The Church has always understood Jesus in terms of Trinity, from the very first bishops, less than 10 years following Jesus.

 

[Ingledsva]

And it was Jewish Tradition that brought us the Hebrew texts. The texts are part of the Tradition, and cannot be separated from it. It was a mixture of Jewish and Gentile Tradition that brought us the Greek texts, and they, likewise, are part of that melded Tradition. The stories of Jesus were oral stories at first, and changed/grew/developed over time -- just as the Hebraic narratives did. Even though the texts don't explicitly cite the formal Trinity formula, they do imply that Jesus was Divine, and that that Divinity was part and parcel of God. Part of the Tradition. As that Tradition developed, a more formal and detailed understanding was reached. But there really is no such thing as "earlier" and "later" Tradition, for Tradition is Tradition; it lives across time, and develops over time -- and is developing still (which is one reason why Jews no longer stone people). There simply is no "corruption of outside influences" as many like to suppose, for Xy (unlike Judaism) is pan-cultural, and it will adopt concepts of the cultures of which it becomes part. The Church has always understood Jesus in terms of Trinity, from the very first bishops, less than 10 years following Jesus.

Trinity is not found anywhere in the Bible.


Supposedly Tertullian, A.D. 145-220 - was the first to use it with reference to the Christian God.


We know for a fact that they were fighting over this, - as we have the Arian controversy.


We have a Jewish ONE GOD, being taken into the pagan, by adding in the trinity doctrine, which IS NOT in the Bible.


Jesus does NOT say he is God - or part of a trinity.



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[Muffled]

Highly unlikely. Paul was WRITING TO CHURCHES already extant, he didn't "invent" Christianity.

I believe Paul states that he received his information from Jesus and knowing the Jewish roots as well as anyone would, made those roots relevant to Christianity.
However I believe Paul was able to put those Jewish roots in perspective considering the Messiahship of Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

Trinity is not found anywhere in the Bible.


Supposedly Tertullian, A.D. 145-220 - was the first to use it with reference to the Christian God.


We know for a fact that they were fighting over this, - as we have the Arian controversy.


We have a Jewish ONE GOD, being taken into the pagan, by adding in the trinity doctrine, which IS NOT in the Bible.


Jesus does NOT say he is God - or part of a trinity.



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I already mentioned that Trinity is not explicit in the texts. But it is implicit.

 

[Muffled]

These verses PROVE that all Christians DID NOT agree with, or ACCEPT Saul/Paul.


As I said - I believe he purposefully sidetracked Christianity from the Jewish Roots, with Jesus as the Special HUMAN Messiah sent from God, - into pagan ideas - Jesus as God - trinity - etc.



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I believe those concepts belong to Jesus not pagans.

 

[Muffled]

I already mentioned that Trinity is not explicit in the texts. But it is implicit.

I believe it is explicit except for the term trinity whiiich is implicit from the trinity itself. Is it so terrible to put a label on a concept?

 

[Muffled]

You said:

Antioch was established before Paul. Antioch is a Greek city.

I believe, although Antioch was originally an Alexandrian conquest having Hellenistic leaders, at the time of Jesus it was in the Roman province of Syria.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I dont think this means 'honor me instead of the father' ... nor does it mean 'worship' him.

You are right, it doesn't say or mean 'honor me instead of the father", he said "Honor me the same way you honor the Father".

Jesus never sought to take the honor or worship we give to God away and have it for himself.

Did he ask anyone to stop honoring the Father and honor him instead???

Read the scripture, Pegg. This is one of those scriptures where you will have to hire someone to help you misinterpret it.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Actually him being a rabble-raiser, countering the Priests, and claiming to be the awaited Messiah, got him killed.

The scripture is very explicitly clear about why they WANTED to kill him at this particular instance that I am refering too. It states that he was BREAKING the Sabbath and making himself EQUAL with God...and if this is what he was doing, then that would have been worthy of death according to Jewish law. If Jesus was not God, then he would have been guilty of these things..and that is the point.

And I might add that he said he was going to his death, and that it had to happen.

When you read the Christian Bible there is no reason to believe Jesus is God; and there is no trinity mentioned anywhere in there.

He gets the honor as the Special awaited ONE sent from the father to bring Judgment.

I'd like a response to what I said regarding Jesus telling us to honor him the same way we honor the Father. Until you can give a good reason why a mere "creation" should be honored the same way that the ALMIGHTY FATHER should be honored, then you have no argument...and all of this "The Trinity is not in the bible" stuff you like to spew isn't valid.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Trinity is not found anywhere in the Bible.


Supposedly Tertullian, A.D. 145-220 - was the first to use it with reference to the Christian God.
The books that make up the New Testament were already viral by that time-frame.

We know for a fact that they were fighting over this, - as we have the Arian controversy.


We have a Jewish ONE GOD, being taken into the pagan, by adding in the trinity doctrine, which IS NOT in the Bible.


Jesus does NOT say he is God - or part of a trinity.

If Jesus is not God, then he shouldn't be honored in the same way that God was honored.

 

[savagewind]

If Jesus is not God, then he shouldn't be honored in the same way that God was honored.

Just imagine Christ is not God's son but God's wife. Should you honor her less than God? I think that would not be wise.

 

[Ingledsva]

The scripture is very explicitly clear about why they WANTED to kill him at this particular instance that I am refering too. It states that he was BREAKING the Sabbath and making himself EQUAL with God...and if this is what he was doing, then that would have been worthy of death according to Jewish law. If Jesus was not God, then he would have been guilty of these things..and that is the point.



I'd like a response to what I said regarding Jesus telling us to honor him the same way we honor the Father. Until you can give a good reason why a mere "creation" should be honored the same way that the ALMIGHTY FATHER should be honored, then you have no argument...and all of this "The Trinity is not in the bible" stuff you like to spew isn't valid.

I believe we have already discussed this - but since you have not provided the book and verse - I'm not sure.


Please provide the book and specific verse so I can look it up in the Greek.



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[Ingledsva]

I already mentioned that Trinity is not explicit in the texts. But it is implicit.

And which verses exactly - would those be?



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[savagewind]

And which verses exactly - would those be?

"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:17

Hebrews 1:10-12
10 In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]

 

[Ingledsva]

"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:17

Hebrews 1:10-12
10 In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]

Let us start with Hebrews 1.


People always mistranslate Hebrews 1, because it switches between GOD and Jesus. Read it in context. What do they say right at the beginning?


Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


If you had not left out Heb 1:9 you would have know this is GOD.


Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God, thy God - same as - YHVH thy Elohiym.

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but Thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt Thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall never end.


EDIT - I forgot the last sentence.


These verses show that Jesus is created, appointed, and anointed, BY GOD, for a task, - He is not God.



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[savagewind]

Let us start with Hebrews 1.


People always mistranslate Hebrews 1, because it switches between GOD and Jesus. Read it in context. What do they say right at the beginning?


Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


If you had not left out Heb 1:9 you would have know this is GOD.


Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God, thy God - same as - YHVH thy Elohiym.

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but Thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt Thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall never end.


EDIT - I forgot the last sentence.


These verses show that Jesus is created, appointed, and anointed, BY GOD, for a task, - He is not God.



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I know he is not God. You asked for scripture that proves to them he is.

 

[Ingledsva]

"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58[/U]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:17

Hebrews 1:10-12
10 In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]

JOHN 8:58 Put back into correct order - look at it in the Greek - it says -


John 8:58 Said he Jesus, Amen (so be it, or, it is so) Amen, saying to them, for Abraham to be (gonomai) fulfilled, I am.


In other words the prophecies spoken of by and to Abraham.


Not God.


Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.


58 "... for Abraham to be (gonomai) fulfilled, I am."


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To Abraham - Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


The Messiah comes from his line.


Genesis:49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people"


Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


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[Ingledsva]

I know he is not God. You asked for scripture that proves to them he is.

OH! LOL!


Then you will like the second one too.


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[savagewind]

OH! LOL!


Then you will like the second one too.


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Yes, I like it.

 

[james2ko]

The scripture is very explicitly clear about why they WANTED to kill him at this particular instance that I am refering too. It states that he was BREAKING the Sabbath and making himself EQUAL with God...and if this is what he was doing, then that would have been worthy of death according to Jewish law. If Jesus was not God, then he would have been guilty of these things..and that is the point. I'd like a response to what I said regarding Jesus telling us to honor him the same way we honor the Father. Until you can give a good reason why a mere "creation" should be honored the same way that the ALMIGHTY FATHER should be honored, then you have no argument...and all of this "The Trinity is not in the bible" stuff you like to spew isn't valid.

Notice how many times if, would, and should are used in your reasoning. They reflect counterfactual conditions which can lead to a false conclusion. I can use the same invalid reasoning to come up with an antithetical argument----What if it was the Pharisees that were wrong about how to properly keep the Sabbath, and Jesus, who was a God, came to show them how it should have really been kept? What if it was the Pharisees who misunderstood Jesus in that Christ was not trying to make Himself equal with God, which Christ Himself and Paul make evident in Joh 14:28; Php 2:5-7? Since Christ was a created "God" made in the Father's image (Heb 1:3), why could He not be honored in the same way as the Father?

As you can see, the same line of invalid reasoning can be used to support the other side of the argument.